#soylent | Logs for 2025-01-14
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[00:00:44] <ted-ious> They don't have a battery inside them??
[00:00:51] <ted-ious> That can't be right.
[00:01:16] <ted-ious> How do they send out ping's for months when they're under water?
[00:01:40] <chromas2> Battery mysteriously failed probably
[00:05:19] <drussell> They have a battery for the locator pinger, but the setup in the 737-NG does NOT have batttery backup power for the actual recording.
[00:05:43] <drussell> It sounds insane, but that's the situation.
[00:06:27] <drussell> Probably a holdover from the fact that the 737 is a 1960s plane design. Newer planes are required to have an INDEPENDENT battery system for the recorders.
[00:07:03] <drussell> Not just powered by the main DC bus, but REQUIRED to have an INDEPENDENT battery system
[00:07:26] <drussell> 737-NG? Nope! Only connected to ONE ENGINE'S AC bus...
[00:08:08] <drussell> You would have to manually reconfigure the electrical system by flipping switches and circuit breakers to rig pwer to them with that engine down.... You don't have time to do that dring an emergency like this
[00:08:17] <drussell> during
[00:09:55] <ted-ious> How hard is it to just get rid of these 1960's recorders and replace them with one's from this century?
[00:10:16] <drussell> Oh, the recorders are brand new... They're digital, store things on flash...
[00:10:36] <ted-ious> But they don't have a battery in them?
[00:11:05] <ted-ious> Whoever approved that design should be in prison forever.
[00:12:09] <drussell> Nope... This plane was built in 2009 but it has no type of battery backup power at all...
[00:12:39] <drussell> (the recorders in it, I mean)
[00:13:43] <drussell> The recorders themselves are required to be updated and replaced on a regular basis, but they still connect to whatever power was used in the original design.
[00:13:44] <ted-ious> This is just corruption.
[00:22:00] <ted-ious> Boeing has to know this is a serious problem and they're just not spending a few dollars to fix it.
[00:24:40] <drussell> https://www.youtube.com
[00:24:42] <systemd> ^ 03737 CVR, FDR, ELT, LF-ULB, DFDAU and QAR
[00:25:10] <drussell> (From the "The Boeing 737 Technical Channel")
[00:27:09] <drussell> Ahh, he seems to have done a video today explaining the power for the recorders:
[00:27:10] <drussell> https://www.youtube.com
[00:27:13] <systemd> ^ 03737 CVR FDR Power
[00:27:44] <ted-ious> Juan brown?
[00:28:22] <drussell> No, the technical guy, Chris Brady's channel
[00:28:53] <drussell> Juan's commented on that latest video, though... :)
[00:33:15] <drussell> Ahh... Interesting... There is a no-charge option from Boeing to have the recorders powered by DC
[00:33:19] <ted-ious> I missed that one.
[00:33:33] <drussell> It is required in the US, but I huess the Koreans didn't order it...
[00:33:58] <drussell> Even though it is NO CHARGE from Boeing to have that option fitted when you order your plane!
[00:34:26] <ted-ious> Why is it even allowed to have it the other way?
[00:34:33] <drussell> guess, not huess
[00:35:38] <drussell> Well, apparently Korea doesn't REQUIRE it, I guess... It is the independent battery backup system that IS required in the US now
[00:36:31] <drussell> The RIPS system is a newer option, wouldn't have been available in 2009 I guess, and I guess JEJU Air didn't retrofit it
[00:37:27] <drussell> It's an independent Li-Ion pack that recharges from the DC bus and powers the recorders directly even if you lost your main DC bus somehow
[00:39:02] <drussell> Oh, and the RIPS system is apparently only for the CVR, and it only lasts 10 minutes?
[00:39:12] <drussell> These are all very strange design choices... LOL
[00:43:04] <ted-ious> How many minutes does it take for a plane to crash if it loses all engines at 30000 feet?
[00:43:39] <ted-ious> More than 10 minutes I bet if it still has backup power to control the descent.
[00:44:20] <ted-ious> Everybody making these stupid decisions needs to be in prison for murder.
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[00:59:32] <drussell> Looks like a 737 has a glide ratio of somewhere between about 15:1 and 20:1, so if you were gliding from 30,000 feet, you should be able to go 85-110 miles gliding, and if we figure you're going about half cruise speed, say 250 mph, that's over half an hour of glide time at least
[01:00:22] <ted-ious> Guaranteed to overwrite the 10 minute recorder.
[01:00:22] <baldusnictor> Backup batteries on the comment flagging black box are failing.
[01:00:50] <drussell> It's not 10 minutes of recording time, the OPTIONAL battery pack LASTS for 10 minutes of recording...
[01:01:51] <drussell> The very oldest CVRs only had like 30 minutes of tape, some of the newer digital ones are much longer, but some of THEM still overwrite at a suprisingly short time, IMHO
[01:01:51] <ted-ious> Oh ok so it just doesn't record anything past 10 minutes from the failure.
[01:02:16] <ted-ious> Right these engineering decisions are stupid and greedy.
[01:02:49] <drussell> Yeah, the new, optional Li-ION backup option for the CVR which you can order at no cost, just adds 10 minutes of backup power, independent of the DC bus...
[01:02:50] <ted-ious> Saving a few thousand dollars on flash memory in a plane that costs millions is just unacceptable.
[01:02:54] <baldusnictor> Not the engineers that are stupid and greedy, they are enslaved professionals.
[01:03:09] <ted-ious> No.
[01:03:18] <drussell> But, doesn't that mean that the RIPS-enabled CVRs are running on the 28-volt DC bus also, not just the AC one?
[01:03:30] <ted-ious> You don't get to claim just folllowing orders to get out of responsibility.
[01:03:43] <drussell> That's what makes no sense... I don't understand how these things could be set up to REQUIRE AC power, that seems just nuts to me
[01:03:52] <ted-ious> Everybody in the company who was involved in this crap needs to go to prison.
[01:05:15] <drussell> Well, Boeing doesn't build the CVR and FDR, the whole industry has "silly design requirementitus"
[01:05:20] <ted-ious> The recorder itself should have a few minutes of solid state capacitor power sealed inside it and the battery pack outside should be replaceable and fairly cheap.
[01:05:46] <drussell> You would think that would be the case, along with long recording times, but that is not what the industry builds.
[01:05:52] <ted-ious> Right they outsource risk and responsibility so nobody is ever held accountable for this corruption.
[01:06:05] <ted-ious> That needs to end.
[01:06:38] <drussell> The regulations are probably still specifying minimums from the olden days when it was new technology, recording on loops of magnetic tape, the FDR only recording like 8 flight parameters, etc.
[01:07:40] <drussell> Yeah, and people still clamour that regulations aren't necessary... The businesses will do "the right thing" on their own... Hardy har har!
[01:08:08] <drussell> They probably wouldn't even HAVE recorders if it wasn't required...
[01:08:11] <baldusnictor> Burdensome regulations!
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[01:09:20] <drussell> Sure, Volvo invented the seat belt on their own, but most car makers had to be dragged kicking and screaming into even offering an option for any kind of safety equipment, let along mandatory belts in every car
[01:09:32] <drussell> alone
[01:10:51] <ted-ious> This whole subject republicans get so wrong.
[01:10:53] <drussell> The more you learn about these types of things, the more absoltely absurd you realize it all is!
[01:11:14] <ted-ious> I don't think that's an accident I think it's intentional propaganda and corruption.
[01:11:58] <drussell> The current republicans only care about allowing the rich elites to make as much money as possible, unrestricted... To inject themselves into every possible revenue stream, especially those ones which are necessary, especially public ones...
[01:12:50] <drussell> If they can "privatize" something to allow a layer of profit taking in something, they're all-in!
[01:12:58] <ted-ious> Well unfortunately that's the democrat party too now.
[01:13:02] <drussell> Whitness the US medical system, etc.
[01:13:26] <drussell> The current dems are corporatist lackeys as well, just slightly less blatant.
[01:13:43] <ted-ious> Elon musk was a life long democrat until a few days ago when he started writing million dollar checks to the other guys he knew were selected to win.
[01:14:17] <drussell> He just got the opportunity to become an anointed oligarch, so obviously jumped at the opportunity!
[01:14:21] <ted-ious> Trust me they're every bit as blatant and much worse in many cases.
[01:14:30] <drussell> What would-be-oligarch wouldn't?!
[01:15:04] <ted-ious> I used to have to ignore it to get along with everybody.
[01:15:36] <drussell> No, they aren't worse. Name three situations where the democrats were demonstrably worse than the republicans when it came to advocating oligarchy.
[01:15:51] <ted-ious> Ok.
[01:16:08] <ted-ious> 1 everything nancy pelosi has done in the past 30 years.
[01:16:29] <ted-ious> 2 obamacare.
[01:16:54] <drussell> Pelosi is a corporate shill, but what specifically did she do that is worse than her republican counterparts?
[01:17:12] <drussell> Obamacare is precisely the plan that the republicans advocated for in the 80s
[01:17:26] <drussell> FORCED insurance with no public option.
[01:17:47] <ted-ious> 3 the top down set of climate policies that benefits mainly musk and a few other billionaires.
[01:18:07] <ted-ious> Right but the democrats made it nation wide.
[01:18:28] <drussell> The republicans advocated for exactly the same thing... For decades...
[01:18:43] <ted-ious> I have family who will still swear that obamacare is the savior of america.
[01:18:52] <drussell> The dems wanted a medicare-for-all system, but settled for RomneyCare...
[01:19:05] <ted-ious> None of them actually have to depend on it of course.
[01:19:08] <drussell> The republicans named it Obamacare
[01:19:18] <ted-ious> LOL
[01:19:45] <ted-ious> Are you still thinking that they are 2 different parties who are opposed to each other?
[01:20:12] <drussell> No the US political system has been completely captured by corprate interests and big money.
[01:20:21] <ted-ious> It got named obamacare because obama loves having his name on it.
[01:20:33] <drussell> It is all going precisely as it was intended to go by those doing the capturing.
[01:20:35] <ted-ious> If he didn't they would have found a different name.
[01:20:37] <drussell> Sad, really.
[01:21:03] <ted-ious> My point is only that these things get focus grouped and both sides are part of the process.
[01:21:05] <drussell> No, the republicans started calling it that as a derogatory term, and Obama embraced it to try to take some wind out of their sails.
[01:21:32] <ted-ious> I guarantee you that's not how it happened.
[01:22:08] <drussell> That is most certainly how it happened. I was paying attention... ;)
[01:22:29] <ted-ious> I don't know who was in the room when that term was brain stormed but you can bet on the fact that people from both parties were involved.
[01:23:52] <drussell> The absurdity that the US has become would be hysterically funny to those of us in the rest of the world if it didn't bleed into everything worldwide with its carnage..
[01:24:24] <drussell> The US is fucking over everyone worldwide with their nonsense.
[01:24:24] <ted-ious> David brock was one of them for sure.
[01:26:25] <ted-ious> Oh probably jon gruber too.
[01:47:01] <drussell> Hmmm, I didnt' realize that the DFDAU (Digital Flight Data Acquisition Unit that actually connects to the various sensors, etc. and sends it to the FDR) actually has a PCMCIA flash card in it and records all the data also, directly... This is where the airline and maintenance people would pull their data from normally, not the crash-resistant FDR, of course...
[01:48:36] <drussell> I suppose on this crash the PCMCIA card has been obliterated and while the DFDAU does supply 28VDC to lots of the sensors and whatnot, I think it needs AC power also to function... so it probably lost power at the same time as the FDR and thus wouldn't have recorded any further useful data anyway?
[01:50:47] <drussell> At first I had though the DFDAU ran on DC only, but then I saw some Teledyne photos and you can see it says 115VAC on the power requirement plate
[02:31:16] <ted-ious> So much technology has changed since these things were designed that we probably should create all new standards and requirements and record 1000 times as much data.
[02:32:28] <ted-ious> How hard would it be to start using 5 samsung 4tb high endurance sd cards instead and record 5 copies of everything the sensors see?
[02:37:58] <drussell> Well, considering the first 737s came with a 7-parameter FDR that inscribed the parameters directly using individual styli on 5" wide metal foil tape that had to be replaced every couple hundred hours, they're definitely recording thousandS more data all the time... :)
[02:38:09] <drussell> Lots of it isn't stored on the legally mandated FDR, though...
[02:38:42] <drussell> You would still think that things like the power to the actual crash-survivable recorders would be more robust... mandatory robustness...
[02:39:22] <drussell> They're still not apparently considered true "emergency" items, since recording it doesn't help you avoid the actual crash....
[02:40:16] <drussell> but it still seems kinda dumb to not make them that little bit more robust to be more likely to help FUTURE possible crash avoidance by recording the previous failures...
[02:41:31] <drussell> TONS of information gets stored by the DFDAU andthese days is usually offloaded automatically via Wi-Fi after each flight for analysis...
[02:42:09] <drussell> They can usually now see engine problems, for example, long before a failure occurs and just schedule in a swap-out before it becomes an in-flight issue.
[02:42:23] <ted-ious> Recording everything helps you prevent more crashes and death.
[02:42:49] <drussell> Most of that data isn't fed to the FDR... But the bit that is, you would think everyone would want it to be as failsafe as possible...
[02:42:52] <drussell> That's what I don't get
[02:43:42] <ted-ious> They're just being cheap.
[02:48:33] <ted-ious> They won't spend money improving things because they don't have to.
[02:51:24] <drussell> I think it's more complex than just the cost, like a 28V psu shouldn't cost more than the 115 VAC PSU, but they're also economizing for things like weight, so the thinner gauge wiring required by using the 115/208V system to supply something than the 28V DC means more cargo capacity and/or more efficiency, etc... They shave every pound in addition to every dollar on materials, etc...
[02:52:34] <drussell> Only things which are absolutely critical for flight end up actually getting any proper, full redundancy.
[02:54:15] <ted-ious> I don't buy those arguments.
[02:54:40] <ted-ious> These planes transport actual tons of passengers and cargo every time they fly.
[02:55:23] <ted-ious> They can afford another 10 pounds of batteries to make these systems not worthless.
[02:57:00] <drussell> You would think that the FDR could have enough battery in it to run for at least a little while, I can imagine it actually NEEDS the AC for anything, it could have its own little UPS on the internal DC supplies
[02:57:36] <drussell> Otherwise, you would basically need a little UPS that charged off 115 and put out 115 400 Hz to the FDR
[02:57:52] <drussell> That would have to be made to the same specs as an FDR though
[02:58:41] <drussell> Ask Teledyne... LOL Why don't your FDRs have internal batteries?!
[03:02:46] <ted-ious> Probably because batteries leak especially when you drop them from 30000 feet.
[03:03:15] <ted-ious> That's why I said they should have solid state capacitors for a few minutes worth of recording and the batteries need to be outside.
[03:03:45] <ted-ious> That's why the pinger is outside the memory chamber I'm sure.
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[05:15:02] <baltonictus> I know who I am.
[05:18:35] <baltonictus> The voices in the dark have no power over me!
[05:20:35] <baltonictus> =asub https://www.thedailybeast.com
[05:20:35] <systemd> Please open the asylums again. Or a gulag.
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[17:43:42] <kolie> The real wtf is, why isn't the data pulled off in real time.
[17:43:54] <kolie> Boeing does it on all their other vehicles.
[17:44:18] <kolie> CVR/FDR, streamed. we got wifi, Satellite/starlink it all out.
[17:44:52] <kolie> given coverage isn't 100%, whatever, but the option is there and would be great.
[17:50:04] <chromas> "oh no, the sim card just happened to fall out an hour before the crash"
[17:50:38] <kolie> Immediate ATC response "Jeju flight 666 it appears your CVR uplink is offline"
[17:51:40] <chromas> it slipped into a phone with a CVR emulator app
[17:51:46] <kolie> lol
[17:51:56] <chromas> how do these things happen? I dunno
[17:52:03] <kolie> like the time you slipped in the shower and needed a shampoo removal
[17:52:18] <chromas> one-in-a-million chance, doc
[18:26:08] <drussell> Many airlines DO have realtime data uplinks set up with flight data, engine performance, etc. Sometimes these days, they'll even turn a flight around after takeoff when they've noticed an engine issue or whatever in flight...
[18:27:29] <kolie> yea ops does a lot at the majors these days
[18:28:05] <drussell> Most of the time they've usually been using one of the satellite network providers up in geostationary orbit, although there is various testing underway using Starlink for various purposes on airliners
[18:29:49] <drussell> JEJU is Korea's original low-cost airline with a fleet of only 40 aircraft... They likely don't realistically have the resources available for such a system to be delpoyed for their airline...
[18:30:47] <drussell> Sure, you can hire such services from a contractor but, again, they're a low-cost regional carrier, I expect that's not really realistic for their business model.
[18:31:02] <kolie> its something that the manus should offer as a bolt on module and support, after market services, but realistically, its cheap enough to throw in as a blanketed mandate and eat
[18:31:38] <drussell> Nothing to do with aircraft is cheap!
[18:32:12] <kolie> with all the launch vehicles and real time telemetetry boeing already manages across their inventory, this is a solved problem.
[19:52:59] <Ingar> obviously they need a starlink subscription
[19:53:45] <Ingar> if you're interested in the technical details of air traffic accidents, I recommend the MEntour Pilot YT channel
[19:54:36] <Ingar> (*aviation incidents in general, not this specific incident)
[19:54:41] <kolie> I think I get every GA incident possible.
[19:55:35] <kolie> I haven't seen this one though, and I subscribe to a lot of them, I'll have to check out the perspective.
[19:55:44] <Ingar> my aviation skills are limited to flightradar24, the planes I see flying over here and old versions of microsoft flight simulator
[19:56:26] <kolie> I fly a few times a week.
[19:56:26] <Ingar> that guy is a pilot and I like his a non-sensationalist approach to all of it
[19:56:38] <kolie> Small pistons, nothing fancy.
[19:56:39] <Ingar> kolie: aah I see :)
[19:57:40] <Ingar> kolie: still, give him a try sometimes, you can confirm wheter or not he's bullshitting
[19:57:57] <kolie> I've updated dev.soylentnews.org with new display code relating to flagged comments.
[19:58:02] <kolie> https://dev.soylentnews.org
[19:58:03] <systemd> ^ 03Worm-Like Fossil Is The Oldest Ancestor Of Spiders And Crustaceans - Dev.SN
[19:58:06] <Ingar> or blame me afterwards for wasting 20 minutes of your life
[19:58:57] <kolie> haha nah I definitely try to look at them all from a perspective of understanding what lead to the problems they face, and lessons learned right.
[19:59:06] <kolie> The FAA regulations, they are all written in blood.
[19:59:34] <kolie> and you see these guys with 14,000 hours and no one is immune to being humbled real fast.
[20:00:14] <Ingar> yeah, that's what I get from it :)
[20:03:32] <janrinok> kolie, I am still around!
[20:21:03] <kolie> https://soylentnews.org is a good view of how soft-deleted comments appear now.
[20:21:04] <systemd> ^ 03SoylentNews Comments | ** Journal Flagged **
[20:22:05] <drussell> Mentour Pilot is alright... I much prefer Juan Browne's style though, when it comes to incident reporting and commentary.
[20:23:19] <kolie> Something about blancolirio bugs me, but the contents is 100/100
[20:23:31] <kolie> I like pilot debrief
[20:23:45] <kolie> totally different, but both very accurate.
[20:25:00] <janrinok> I'm going to dash into bed and get online for my French lesson. Thanks for you work kolie on the flagged comments.
[20:25:16] <kolie> np. thx for the feedback.
[20:25:19] <kolie> janrinok++
[20:25:19] <bender> janrinok: 114
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[22:22:02] <kolie> https://soylentnews.org
[22:22:03] <systemd> ^ 03Journal of kolie (2622)
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[23:41:38] <kolie> aww
[23:41:42] <kolie> dont like your missing posts.
[23:41:46] <kolie> You know I flag you too :)
[23:41:52] <kolie> It's not all jan bad.
[23:42:19] <kolie> Sometimes its kolie needs a spanking.
[23:47:25] <baldornictor> kolie is as dumb as a missing post?
[23:47:57] <kolie> isodum i dum longtime
[23:48:13] <baldornictor> "Dumb" as in incapable of speech, whether by nature or censorship/
[23:48:29] <kolie> dumb as in iq < 10
[23:49:21] <baldornictor> "Flagged" and "soft delete" are just euphemisms for hard deletion?
[23:49:49] <kolie> no so the flag/soft delete means the comment is not displayed anywhere, but its retained inside the DB.
[23:49:59] <kolie> So for example, staff can see flagged comments.
[23:56:14] <baldornictor> So how are soylentils, at this point very suspicious of the ruling cabal, able to verify that the post was properly censored?
[23:56:56] <kolie> I don't know. They didn't specify that when they said that the comments would be deleted. If only the community could vote on how to handle that.
[23:57:23] <janrinok> Simple, you are banned. All your posts should be deleted.
[23:57:42] <baldornictor> If only! Janronak has promised board elections any day now, if he can figure how to rig them.
[23:58:11] <kolie> The board doesn't vote on that kind of thing.
[23:58:13] <kolie> The community does.
[23:58:28] <baldornictor> kolie is banned? I am not, I am baldornictor! Gaze upon my glory, an weep!
[23:58:31] <janrinok> baldornictor, shouldn't worry you, you haven't got a vote
[23:59:00] <baldornictor> Board elections are not voting by the board, it is voting for the board, if we knew who that was.
[23:59:00] <kolie> baldornictor, go ahead and sign in and post a journal, then we can see who you are.
[23:59:33] <kolie> I welcome it.
[23:59:50] <janrinok> baldornictor, If you look in the wiki the Board is described there - even with usernames and uids
[23:59:53] <baldornictor> You want me to register an account, so you can censor it? That is some twisted thinking, right there