#soylent | Logs for 2025-01-04
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[00:40:07] <drussell> The captain had over 6,820 hours of flight experience
[00:40:35] <drussell> FO 1,650
[00:42:17] <drussell> I figure panic, made poor decision to do a go around to troubleshoot the problems, likely should have just kept going with the landing
[00:42:47] <ted-ious> Why would they have retracted the landing gear?
[00:43:13] <drussell> To do a go-around... Pulled the flaps back in, retracted the landing gear... to gain speed and altitude...
[00:43:28] <drussell> They should have just kept going since they were already configured for landing
[00:43:31] <drussell> !!
[00:43:31] <bender> Unknown command
[00:43:31] <devbot> Command failed: fork/exec /misc/command_handler.py: permission denied
[00:46:17] <drussell> They ended up landing with a tailwind, no gear, no flaps, berm at the end of the runway...
[00:46:33] <drussell> They probably would have been fine if they just executed the original approach
[00:47:45] <ted-ious> That's what it sounds like.
[00:48:31] <drussell> The biggest question is did they basically lose both engines due to birds, or did they shut down the good engine?
[00:48:59] <drussell> There is video of the right engine backfiring and cauging, but we don't know whether the left engine was fucked too
[00:49:06] <drussell> caughing
[00:49:38] <drussell> The right engine that definitely had issues appeared to still be running when they crash landed.
[00:49:55] <drussell> That doesn't mean the left engine wasn't damaged by birds
[00:50:32] <drussell> It will be very interesting to see the data from the FDR
[00:50:57] <drussell> If they shut down the wrong engine, it was pilot error
[00:51:24] <drussell> If both engines were fucked, it was still pilot error to not try to continue the original landing on heading 01
[00:51:46] <drussell> ( at least in hindight )
[00:51:53] <drussell> hindsight
[01:02:18] <ted-ious> Do you have any links in english talking about the pilots?
[01:02:44] <ted-ious> I hadn't heard that they were both experienced and competent.
[01:04:56] <drussell> Juan @ blancolirio talked about the captain's flight hours, as did Denys @ pilot blog I think, in one of his videos... The flight hours are on the wikipedia page about the crash also...
[01:04:57] <drussell> https://en.wikipedia.org
[01:06:10] <drussell> The original heading to land on runway 01 wouldn't have that silly localizer antenna at the end, or at least I don't think the one at the other end is as stupid, and they are in the process of extending the runway to the north...
[01:07:00] <drussell> I guess I could try to find a picture of the north end's current antenna location.... but I don't think there is the same sort of silly berm and then a concrete block security wall a few hundred feet beyond that
[01:07:20] <drussell> (like there is when landing towards the south)
[01:07:46] <ted-ious> Juan said that in his update video?
[01:07:54] <ted-ious> I missed that somehow.
[01:09:02] <ted-ious> BTW there are localizer antennas on both ends but the one they hit was closer to the end of the runway than if they had continued their landing.
[01:09:42] <drussell> I think he talked about it in one of his earlier video(s)
[01:09:44] <drussell> https://www.google.ca!3m1!1e3!4m6!3m5!1s0x3573c6fb31b5332d:0x470efa2446f23cc4!8m2!3d34.9935753!4d126.3878557!16s%2Fm%2F03bxw30?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTIxMS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
[01:10:07] <drussell> I'm trying to see on the sat images where the north end's antenna currently is
[01:10:30] <drussell> As you can see from the images, they are in the process of extending the runwas significantly to the north, not sure where the ILS antenna currently is
[01:10:43] <ted-ious> He said they were going to extend the runway so google earth might be out of date.
[01:12:08] <drussell> You can see the construction in the current google sat images
[01:12:30] <drussell> Not sure if the antenna is currently in this mess:
[01:12:31] <drussell> https://www.google.ca!3m1!1e3!4m6!3m5!1s0x3573c6fb31b5332d:0x470efa2446f23cc4!8m2!3d34.9935753!4d126.3878557!16s%2Fm%2F03bxw30?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTIxMS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
[01:12:44] <drussell> or, it kinda looks like it is already up here:
[01:13:08] <drussell> https://www.google.ca!3m1!1e3!4m6!3m5!1s0x3573c6fb31b5332d:0x470efa2446f23cc4!8m2!3d34.9935753!4d126.3878557!16s%2Fm%2F03bxw30?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTIxMS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
[01:13:26] <drussell> like, they may have already moved it way up where the end of the runway WILL be once it is extended
[01:16:26] <drussell> Regardless, it looks like there are far fewer obstacles when landing northwards on 01 than 180 degrees southwards on 19
[01:17:01] <drussell> (although, I'm not sure what that mess at the north end of the current runway axctually looks like at ground level)
[01:18:32] <drussell> I certainly think ANY airport with limited overrun area should have some sort of gravel trap or other form of speed arrestor setup at the end of their runways for the event of runway overshoot excursions...
[01:19:22] <ted-ious> Right I was wondering why there wasn't any but I assumed there were reasons like the tropical conditions making gravel pits not a good idea or something.
[01:19:40] <drussell> Certainly not a reinforced concrete foundation embedded in a berm to try to launch the plane over the security fence, FFS...
[01:20:21] <drussell> The excessive foundaition is supposedly due to the tropical / typhoon conditions or somesuch...
[01:20:57] <ted-ious> That explains why they wanted the antennas to be a bit higher up in case there was flooding.
[01:21:01] <drussell> ... but putting frangible antenna mountings at the top of a berm with a concrete foundation kinda defets the purpose of them being frangible
[01:21:08] <drussell> (unless you're in a cessna or something)
[01:21:17] <ted-ious> But yeah having such a heavy structure at the end like that is just crazy.
[01:21:50] <ted-ious> The video of it hitting on the wikipedia page is shocking.
[01:22:15] <drussell> Yeah, that is just a disaster waiting to happen the first time a jet overruns the runway to the south end
[01:23:18] <drussell> I mean, the concrete block wall wasn't going to be fun to hit either, but it would be WAY less solid than the ridiculous foundation in that antenna berm
[01:23:48] <ted-ious> It's like flying into a mountain.
[01:24:03] <drussell> The wall would have self-disassembled at least a little bit, and then there is basically flat area and roadway on the other side
[01:24:28] <drussell> More people would likely have survived, at least, if it wasn't for that antenna foundation
[01:26:55] -!- plexiplenum [plexiplenum!~plexiplen@98.98.ziy.yi] has joined #soylent
[01:29:30] <plexiplenum> Trainwreck, or Trumpster fire? No, it is a jegu airplain!
[01:36:23] -!- plexiplenum has quit [Quit: Client closed]
[02:17:20] <ted-ious> drussell: I just realized that none of the video's show the plane dumping fuel before trying to land.
[02:18:18] <ted-ious> If they knew their landing gear wasn't down they should have dumped all their fuel before trying to crash land.
[02:22:03] <drussell> First of all, it was only 3 minutes from the time they maydayed from striking birds until they crash landed...
[02:22:26] <drussell> and seconf, the 737 doesn't have a dump nozzle, if you need to burn fuel you have to fly around in circles for a while.... Not an optiion in this case
[02:23:42] <drussell> I think they lost most of their thust in both engines, either because they both failed from birds, or the right one did, but they shut down the left
[02:23:47] <ted-ious> Why is that allowed?!
[02:24:12] <ted-ious> I thought all planes had to be able to dump fuel?
[02:24:25] <drussell> They only had 3 minutes, it wouldn't have mattered, dumping fuel takes a long time
[02:24:36] <ted-ious> Wasn't it 7 minutes?
[02:24:44] <drussell> A 737 just isn't considered to have tnough fuel on board to realistically need to dump
[02:24:52] <drussell> enough
[02:25:03] <drussell> No, apparently it was actually only 3
[02:25:18] <ted-ious> A 737-800 is not a small plane tho.
[02:26:42] <drussell> They decided to do that go around, then realized they didn't have enough trust, swung around as fast as they could to land heading south on the 19 runway direction and didn't even have time to configure to drop flaps and landing gear somehoow, probably trying to keep as much glide as they could to try to make the airport and ended up 1300m down the runway
[02:26:47] <drussell> still at high speed
[02:26:56] <drussell> with no brakes because no gear
[02:27:05] <drussell> no thrust reverse on at least one engine
[02:29:01] <drussell> Why they weren't at least trying to redeploy the flaps or something makes little sense, those even supposedly have DC (maybe?) electric backup to deploy to flaps 15 degrees...
[02:29:41] <ted-ious> There seem to be so many bad decisions all at once.
[02:30:23] <drussell> Yeah, I think they probably just ran out of time, trying to go far enough to swing around and make the runway, they never got reconfigured to land?
[02:31:03] <ted-ious> If there's something wrong with the plane how does it make sense to pull the landing gear back up?
[02:31:08] <drussell> Forgot they had retracted the gear? I don't know... I think they were just trying to make it, I guess.... We'll see when we hear the cockpit conversations and see the flight data
[02:31:25] <ted-ious> Unless that's not good to have down if you're going into the water?
[02:31:31] <drussell> I think they thought it was just regular bird strike, intended to configure for single engine and THEN land
[02:32:16] <drussell> I think their first instinct was to call for a go-around, pull up the gear, full throttle, etc. to climb, abort the original landing
[02:32:45] <drussell> THEN they realized they had no thrust, and just quickly tried to swing around and get on the ground
[02:33:40] <drussell> ... or shut down the good engine, realized they had no thrust that they just caused, and tried to swing around for a quick crash landing
[02:34:02] <drussell> I was suprised to look at the hydraulic schematics and find that the electrical backup hydraulic pumps for BOTH system A and B are AC powered
[02:34:52] <drussell> if you lose both engines, you have no AC power unless you start the APU (takes a minute or two to come up) or switch on the DC -> AC inverter and reconfigure some AC busses to power those pumps
[02:35:18] <drussell> If you're only hundreds of feet above the ground, you don't have time to do these things, I guess...
[02:35:30] <ted-ious> Why aren't those things automatic?
[02:35:51] <ted-ious> My ups switches over to battery power instantly.
[02:36:29] <drussell> The plane was designed in the 1960s? :)
[02:37:05] <ted-ious> But that one had the new high efficiency engines didn't it?
[02:37:16] <drussell> This was just after the era where all big planes had a flight engineer
[02:37:17] <ted-ious> So it's not like it's 60 years old.
[02:37:37] <drussell> Yeah, but it's still a 737... They can't change the basic design under one type rating...
[02:37:43] <drussell> Hence the fiasco that is the 737 MAX
[02:38:08] <drussell> Instead of building a new type of plane, Boeing tried to make a plane that would fly just like the original 737
[02:38:18] <drussell> but it is too different
[02:38:50] <drussell> It needs separate pilot training to it's idiosyncrocies
[02:39:19] <drussell> They should have just made a 797 or whatever they could have called it, made it actually properly and extra high efficient, etc.
[02:40:52] <drussell> The latest 737 off the line still has physical cables to the flight control surfaces, as far as I know... You can still steer it with no hydraulics at all, just like power steering on a car, but you will need very stong-arm inputs to have much effect
[02:41:34] <drussell> If everything is already trimmed perfectly, and you're at speed and altitude, supposedly you could glide-fly the 737 just with the cable linkages
[02:42:21] <drussell> The hydraulics just assist
[02:42:41] <drussell> The trim is still manual, with an electric motor assist
[02:43:32] <drussell> You can even drop the landing gear by gravity if you have time to pull the locky-pins and pull the handles and whatnot
[02:44:36] <drussell> It takes a little while for any remaining hydraulic fluid to drain back or something, but if you have the time, the gear will drop all the way and lock, but that does take some time...
[02:45:35] <drussell> I have a feeling that by the time they realized they had no power, they didn't have time to do anything configuration-wise, they were stuck, going down NOW, ground approaching, terrain, terrain
[02:46:08] <drussell> We'll see...
[02:50:35] <drussell> This plane is a 747-800 so is a non-MAX, NG style aircraft ("Next Generation" which was 3rd generation) built in 2009
[02:51:24] <drussell> I really can't wait to hear the preliminary analysis from the FDR and CVR on this one... It's all very crazy
[02:55:35] <drussell> Oh, and I was going to say above, even the smaller standby (third) hydraulic system on the 373 runs on AC, I would have expect them to run that little system off the DC bus so you didn't have to have a working inverter or APU or at least one generator in the main engines... That seems nuts to me...
[02:56:22] <drussell> I guess the 3 phase 400 Hz AC motor is just too much lighter and power wiring smaller / lighter due to the reduced current than would be practical to run on DC? I don't know...
[02:59:39] <drussell> I was just surprised that all three of the "electric" backup hydraulic pumps need 120/208V instead of 28V DC
[03:00:14] <drussell> Well, I guess 24V if you're on battery with no charging... :)
[05:00:35] <kolie> lol
[05:02:13] <kolie> jeju dump fuel?
[05:02:47] <kolie> they were landing, probably wasnt much on board.
[05:07:39] <kolie> SEems like the timing involved made for not a lot of thinking and they probably ran it by instinct and whatever training was automatic.
[05:08:36] <kolie> Your landing, the startle factor is going to delay any real progress to a solution for a good 10-15s, trouble shooting that low in an unknown situation? they had some hard decisions to make quick.
[05:09:17] <kolie> havent looked to much at the chain of events, but I imagine a belly landing might've seemed reasonable to them, and it's just unfortunate the design of this airport.
[05:09:34] <kolie> cause if it wasnt for this beem the same actions pretty much anywhere else wouldn't have killed 180 people.
[05:10:08] <kolie> It's interesting to see a large group of people talking about blancolirio tho :)
[05:19:46] <kolie> Low use airport, New flight route only 20 days old, Known bird issues and little done about it, seems like only 1 of 4 required bird chasers was on duty
[05:20:02] <kolie> Did ATC notice the gear wasn't down?
[05:33:47] <kolie> What a weird accident, be intersting to see as they release more details.
[05:34:26] <kolie> On the final landing the video of the left engine is just odd
[05:35:12] <kolie> if both are not operating, ok makes sense keep wheels up to maximize glide, but why not have flaps in for speed, unless its just so chaotic and warnings going off they are just overwhelme.
[05:35:51] <kolie> Seems like hydraulics are live given they have thrust reverser, but the left one wasnt active, but if the right one worked at all, gear probably wasnt missing hydraulic power
[05:35:53] <kolie> so weird.
[10:31:30] -!- plenduriplenum [plenduriplenum!~plendurip@164.92.iuj.mhk] has joined #soylent
[10:33:35] <Ingar> there have been several incidents with cars driving into crowds the past years
[10:34:13] <Ingar> germany, netherlands, belgium
[10:35:55] <janrinok> it is not a new idea
[10:36:18] <janrinok> I don't know, but is this new to the usa?
[10:36:52] <janrinok> ... sorry, good morning Ingar!
[10:37:26] <Ingar> np, good morning janrinok !
[10:39:09] <Ingar> janrinok: I think it is mostly new to the USA, usually they have a shooter on the loose
[10:39:59] <janrinok> busy at the moment....
[10:40:02] <chromas> are we talking about the one where the guy does a drive-in then gets out and starts shooting?
[10:40:15] <chromas> see we took european culture and americanized it :D
[10:40:40] <Ingar> :-D
[10:40:59] <Ingar> good morning to you too chromas :)
[10:41:24] <chromas> g'day
[10:49:24] <plenduriplenum> Drive/Fly by wire, die by wire, i always say! Crowds are their own damn faults. Do you know nothing of Shi'ia?
[10:53:39] <janrinok> g'day chromas
[10:53:53] <plenduriplenum> Or in hindusism, it is the Juggarnaught. We call it bitcoin in the US.
[10:54:24] <plenduriplenum> janrinok--
[10:54:25] <bender> janrinok: 118
[10:58:34] <plenduriplenum> drussell, PM.
[10:58:51] -!- plenduriplenum has quit [Quit: Client closed]
[13:57:06] <Bytram> plenduriplenum--
[13:57:07] <bender> plenduriplenum: -1
[13:57:28] <Bytram> janrinok++
[13:57:28] <bender> janrinok: 119
[13:57:36] <Bytram> janrinok++
[13:57:36] <bender> janrinok: 120
[13:58:52] <Bytram> (fixed it... and added one for good measure!)
[14:06:55] -!- soylentil78 [soylentil78!~soylentil@2001:67c:6ec:zms:wwt:js:til:wqo] has joined #soylent
[14:07:07] <soylentil78> salut
[14:08:11] -!- soylentil78 has quit [Client Quit]
[14:20:00] <janrinok> hi
[14:20:49] <Bytram> g'day!
[14:23:09] <janrinok> hi Bytram - how's things?
[15:16:03] <drussell> plenduriplenum--
[15:16:03] <bender> plenduriplenum: -2
[15:16:20] <drussell> ^^ bit sure what that is, but it smells funny
[15:16:24] <drussell> Not sure
[15:16:41] <drussell> janrinok++
[15:16:41] <bender> janrinok: 121
[15:16:44] <drussell> Bytram++
[15:16:44] <bender> bytram: 188
[15:16:49] <drussell> kolie++
[15:16:49] <bender> kolie: 26
[15:17:32] <drussell> and, I suppose for good measure:
[15:17:34] <drussell> chromas++
[15:17:34] <bender> chromas: 439
[15:17:36] <drussell> :)
[15:20:38] <janrinok> Hey, you got a PM! It is your lucky day .... or something. :D
[15:20:59] <chromas> "bit sure"...sounds like someone's typing on a phone
[15:21:27] <drussell> No, laptop... Just sitting at a weird angle... haha
[15:21:31] <chromas> drussell++
[15:21:31] <chromas> janrinok++
[15:21:31] <chromas> Bytram++
[15:21:31] <chromas> poutine--
[15:21:31] <bender> drussell: 9
[15:21:31] <bender> janrinok: 122
[15:21:31] <bender> bytram: 189
[15:21:31] <bender> poutine: -448
[15:22:06] <janrinok> I wonder what happened to poutine?
[15:22:09] <drussell> I should actually lern to proofread what I type instead of just hitting enter... LOL
[15:22:42] <chromas> He was a much better naysayer than the current guy
[15:27:03] <drussell> janrinok: Oh, I see what you're talking about... LOL I see plenum is threatening to send me a message, is he/she/it? 🤣 LOLz
[15:27:38] <drussell> I'll watch for side window chatz... 🤣
[15:28:18] <drussell> Does it even open if you've used /ignore? LOL
[15:30:13] <drussell> FriesGravyCheeseCurds++
[15:30:13] <bender> friesgravycheesecurds: 1
[15:30:42] <fab23> drussell: depends probably on the client, but it should not open
[15:31:46] <fab23> some other feature which may be available is to only allow query from registred nicks
[20:08:16] -!- plenduriplenum [plenduriplenum!~plendurip@62.12.wjp.ym] has joined #soylent
[20:11:55] <plenduriplenum> Obsessive-compulsive oblivious rebuttal disorder, on aisle 5.
[20:23:51] <plenduriplenum> poutine++
[20:23:51] <bender> poutine: -447
[20:24:53] -!- ky0nko [ky0nko!~kvirc@2001:5b0:50c6:wgyr:gpxg:lgxq:sjlq:qxtg] has joined #soylent
[20:25:08] <ky0nko> cybrtrk
[20:34:28] <Bytram> ky0nko: Please change your nick
[20:35:36] <Bytram> a quick glance and it looks like kolie
[20:36:33] <Bytram> impersonating a user is grounds for removal
[20:37:01] <Bytram> ky0nko: ^^^
[20:37:17] ky0nko is now known as kyonko
[20:37:26] <kyonko> a quick glance?
[20:37:54] <plenduriplenum> Users are not responsible for admin dyslexia. Looks like c0lo, to me.
[20:38:07] <kyonko> nah it something else
[20:38:09] <kyonko> nothing new
[20:38:14] <kyonko> depends on the font
[20:38:47] <plenduriplenum> Paranoia is spreading on SoylentPhrentic.
[20:38:52] <Bytram> nope. you know what I mean!
[20:39:03] <kyonko> we all know whats going on
[20:39:07] <kyonko> remember the 90's?
[20:39:14] <Bytram> nope. you know what I mean!
[20:39:25] <kyonko> yeah i forgot the name of the font
[20:39:34] <kyonko> i always used something like fixedsys which was also common on mac
[20:40:14] <kyonko> even on bbs era text files i've seen a lot of 0's confused with O's
[20:41:10] <plenduriplenum> But that is what THEY want you to mean!!
[20:41:24] <kyonko> obey
[20:41:48] <plenduriplenum> Resistance is utile
[20:43:05] <kyonko> 5 years ago or so the nashville firehouse blew up
[20:43:11] <kyonko> firehose
[20:43:14] <kyonko> hm
[20:43:19] <kyonko> utils
[20:43:31] <kyonko> disk utils
[20:43:50] <kyonko> i think the dyslexia of borg meme is 90's old
[20:44:04] <kyonko> https://groups.google.com
[20:44:15] <kyonko> nothing to do with dyslexia of borg sig
[20:47:16] <Bytram> kyonko: you have 1 minute to fix your nick
[20:47:55] <Bytram> or it will be kicked
[20:47:59] <plenduriplenum> This is an old nick, no one besides martyb is confused. Not a violation of rules.
[20:48:06] <kyonko> what
[20:48:10] kyonko is now known as qyonko
[20:48:34] <qyonko> what in the neuralink future is this
[20:48:35] <plenduriplenum> Paranoia is now the norm on SoylentPhonix
[20:48:55] <qyonko> where does musk think he is going to place the neuralink?
[20:49:35] <plenduriplenum> Replaces the Covid-19 Trump UV suppository.
[20:50:18] <qyonko> This disk is copy projected.
[20:50:55] <Bytram> .op
[20:50:55] -!- mode/#soylent [+o Bytram] by Imogen
[20:51:01] -!- qyonko was kicked from #soylent by Bytram!~Bytram@Soylent/Staff/Developer/martyb [qyonko]
[20:51:17] <Bytram> .deop
[20:51:17] -!- mode/#soylent [-o Bytram] by Imogen
[20:51:28] <plenduriplenum> Who has taken over the Bytram account?
[20:51:54] <plenduriplenum> Must be janrinok, sockpuppeting again.
[20:53:39] <Bytram> plenduriplenum: (ari) cut the crap. or do you want to me kicked, too?
[20:54:13] <Bytram> .op
[20:54:13] -!- mode/#soylent [+o Bytram] by Imogen
[20:54:48] -!- plenduriplenum was kicked from #soylent by Bytram!~Bytram@Soylent/Staff/Developer/martyb [plenduriplenum]
[20:55:03] <Bytram> .deop
[20:55:03] -!- mode/#soylent [-o Bytram] by Imogen
[20:55:29] -!- plenduriplenum [plenduriplenum!~plendurip@62.12.wjp.ym] has joined #soylent
[20:55:39] <Bytram> .op
[20:55:39] -!- mode/#soylent [+o Bytram] by Imogen
[20:55:42] <plenduriplenum> Moi? kicked? Mon Dieu!
[20:55:55] -!- plenduriplenum was kicked from #soylent by Bytram!~Bytram@Soylent/Staff/Developer/martyb [plenduriplenum]
[20:56:10] -!- plenduriplenum [plenduriplenum!~plendurip@62.12.wjp.ym] has joined #soylent
[20:56:16] <Bytram> oui
[20:56:33] <plenduriplenum> Moi? kicked? Again? Mon Dieu!
[20:57:08] <Bytram> this is so much fun!
[20:59:08] <plenduriplenum> Not as much fun as deleting all the AC posts!
[20:59:45] <plenduriplenum> "Gentlemen! You can't chat in IRC!"
[21:01:04] <plenduriplenum> BTW, who is ari?
[21:03:04] <Bytram> act like a jerk and you will be treated like a jerk
[21:03:43] <plenduriplenum> *hold up a mirror, for bytram/janrinok.
[21:05:05] <Bytram> hmm, I only see aristarchus
[21:05:43] <Bytram> or is that aristarchASS
[21:05:45] <plenduriplenum> I have always suspected that bytram was aristarchus.
[21:06:59] <Bytram> failed supposition
[21:07:20] <Bytram> .
[21:07:28] <plenduriplenum> I hate it when suppositories fail!
[21:08:07] <Bytram> I suppose.
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[22:48:56] <kolie> o/
[22:54:05] <drussell> \o
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[23:33:31] <pluriplenum> Morale will be beaten until continuing improves!
[23:56:54] <pluriplenum> Very RAF, don't ya think?
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