#soylent | Logs for 2024-04-13

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[01:59:58] -!- aristarchus [aristarchus!~aristarch@146.70.shr.jiu] has joined #soylent
[02:00:54] <aristarchus> Is everyone aware that there is a problem? The site is back up, and that is a problem.
[02:16:03] -!- aristarchus has quit [Quit: Client closed]
[07:34:46] <chromas> https://www.youtube.com
[07:34:47] <systemd> ^ 03Fallout TV Show
[07:34:59] <chromas> Fallout creator approves of the tv show
[07:35:58] <chromas> apparently the show creators and actors and other people are fans of the game
[07:36:09] <chromas> must not be made by Disney or Sony
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[07:45:12] <aristarchus_chromas> Anyone having problems with comments and usual stuffs
[07:45:47] <aristarchus_chromas> Not to mention being kicked by chromas, the racist rightwing admin.
[07:46:11] -!- aristarchus_chromas was kicked from #Soylent by chromas!~chromas@Soylent/Staph/Infector/chromas [aristarchus_chromas]
[07:47:16] <Ingar> racism is a crime, that makes unfounded allegations, libel?
[07:50:32] <chromas> https://i.imgflip.com
[07:53:25] <Ingar> he's just attending a meeting of Elmo's gang
[07:59:00] <chromas> everyone hates elmo
[08:05:54] <Ingar> I bet ari is bert himself
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[08:29:17] <aristarchus_chromas_> Nice to be back. Kickme again, chromas asshole!
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[08:30:09] -!- mode/#soylent [+r #soylent] by chromas
[08:38:54] <janrinok> As if by clockwork, he appears here.
[08:39:40] <chromas> a clockwork bore-inge
[08:39:45] <Ingar> I wonder if he sets his alarm every morning
[08:39:59] <Ingar> 9u30 get coffee 9u45 bother soylent
[08:40:56] <janrinok> The downtime is caused by a log that has been created that is filling up at a huge rate of knots. It is a log that has appeared certainly since the 'update'. There is no record as to WHY the log has been created or why someone has thought it necessary. audioguy is therefore reluctant to simply delete it.
[08:41:55] <chromas> we don't need log files; we have the journal
[08:42:10] <janrinok> However, automatic action to prevent the log from simply filling the drive partition(which is exactly what it IS doing at the moment) has now been introduced.
[08:43:59] <janrinok> Speculation on my part - it might be related to the now-aborted attempt at dockerising the entire site which was one of the aims of the 'upgrade'.
[08:44:54] <janrinok> Ingar, it certainly seems that wea
[08:45:55] <janrinok> *way. He is a man (?) of routine and patterns.
[08:46:24] <janrinok> He has a serious mental problem though
[08:46:49] <chromas> he probably uses a systemd.timer :D
[08:48:21] <janrinok> chromas, hey, ari has posted a comment naming you and complaining about IRC... https://soylentnews.org
[08:48:22] <systemd> ^ 03SoylentNews Comments | What was highest label on your first car speedometer? ( https://soylentnews.org )
[08:49:41] <janrinok> Sorry I just deleted it too soon
[08:49:42] <chromas> Interesting, I haven't seen any speedometer labels like that
[08:49:57] <janrinok> glad that you did see it though!
[08:50:14] <chromas> wouldn't it just be offtopic?
[08:51:23] <janrinok> No, all ari's posts should be marked as a minimum of 'Spam' (iaw the Meta of a couple of years ago) and can be deleted at the discretion of the administrators.
[08:51:51] <janrinok> I should simply have marked it as spam for the moment while I am testing some software.
[08:52:19] <chromas> put it back for testing purposes
[08:52:28] <chromas> or just put a new one in with the same pid and stuff
[08:52:39] <chromas> "I am ari. I' retarded"
[08:55:05] <janrinok> I cannot put it back in the same place - the db will not allow that. All I can do (at the moment) is to resubmit it but that will then contain completely different data other than the actual comment.
[08:55:29] <chromas> it's okay. it doesn't have to be the same message content
[08:55:54] <chromas> "I fart in your general direction!"
[08:57:45] <janrinok> No, but the other data that gets saved will be completely different and therefore would be of no use for software testing. I have probably tagged a dozen 'Spam' of his posts which were made since yesterday evening (my time) until he finished posting about 20 mins ago.
[09:00:41] <chromas> dozen? I thought you guys were metric over there
[09:01:28] <chromas> ten-sided doughnuts in groups of 10
[09:02:05] <janrinok> you mean our decinuts? V popular they are too
[09:02:37] <chromas> ah yes the prefixes
[09:02:55] <chromas> are they cheaper by the deczen?
[09:04:31] <Ingar> they should be called decanuts
[09:04:34] <janrinok> I suppose it could also be decanuts
[09:04:42] <janrinok> ninja'a!
[09:06:21] <Ingar> douzo yoroshiku
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[13:30:33] <fab23> AlwaysNever: I have no idea, I just have monitoring running from the outside and alert the staff.
[13:35:26] <drussell> Can't this offending logfile just be put into /etc/newsyslog.conf so it gets rotated?!
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[14:13:52] <AlwaysNever> Is that ever growing log file related to Apache, or to another thing? Is logrotate taking care of it? Is the log file growing to fill the partition in less than a day? If that log file is deemed to be of no use, could it just be disabled?
[14:17:14] <ted-ious> Maybe it's an important log but it doesn't stop growing because it only write one file and doesn't know how to switch to another?
[14:22:36] <janrinok> All good questions to which I haven't got the detailed answers.
[14:23:53] <janrinok> Can we simply switch it off - theoretically yes but we don't know what purpose it serves. There is no documentation. It is a rollback log - rolling back the db loses data. Rolling back the business code - well it isn't being changed and hasn't been for almost a year at least.
[14:24:02] <janrinok> Could we move it to .
[14:25:14] <janrinok> Could we move it to /var/log/? Yes, but what software is expecting to be where it currently is? If it moves what else will break?
[14:26:55] <janrinok> there is NO accompanying documentation. Who knows what it is for? NCommander presumably but he is simply waiting to hand over to the new company, and we are waiting for the registration to be approved.
[14:28:14] <requerdanos> possible solutions, move it and drop a symlink in its former place. or move it to /dev/null and stand back and watch to see what happens. On second thought, maybe not that second one.
[14:29:32] <janrinok> If the log is rotated will the software that is using it (assuming that something actually needs it) expect a full and detailed log or will it be happy with just the last 24 hours or... or... or...
[14:30:49] <janrinok> All the technical documentation that we had created over 9 years was left untouched while we lost several servers and reconfigured the others. We will have to rebuild from scratch but we have known this for over a year.
[14:31:50] <janrinok> so the best that we can do is provide a copy of what we have today for a couple of weeks while we reconfigure new servers and document everything, then switch over when we are happy.
[14:32:10] <fab23> janrinok: hm, if it is a transaction log of mysql, it may be a left over from the repliaction setup in the past. On the other hand it may also be used in recovery, but can be configured how large it should grow and how many rotation should be keept
[14:33:03] <janrinok> fab23, I do not have the answers that you seek.
[14:33:17] <janrinok> I am not the droid you are looking for.
[14:33:57] <fab23> janrinok: I know, but hopefully you can relay this info to the only person with access to the systems.
[14:34:34] <janrinok> we have put in place a fix - we will wait and see what happens next.
[14:38:32] <AlwaysNever> janrinok: quote: "It is a rollback log - rolling back the db loses data" - so it is not an ordinary log file, it is a transactional log for a database
[14:38:39] <AlwaysNever> that is a totally different thing
[14:40:12] <AlwaysNever> Therefore, what is need is to truncate that transactional log file, using the database tools for that task, and there reconfigure the database to not generate such a transactional log file, or to auto-truncate it periodically
[14:40:15] <janrinok> it is not a standard mysql backup file - other than that I cannot say, I haven't seen it.
[14:41:30] <janrinok> we are not reconfiguring anything until we have control of the servers. It can all be undone again as has happened in the past. Nobody is going to waste any effort. I'm not sure that you understand what has been happening for the last year or so.
[14:42:14] <AlwaysNever> I guess it MySQL 8 which has transaction logging enabled by default, when in previous versions it wasn't
[14:43:08] <drussell> Ugh... It's not a regular logfile, but a transaction log... that's more problematic.
[14:43:42] <AlwaysNever> that is solved in /etc/mysql/mysql.conf setting "disable_log_bin" in the "[mysqld]" secction
[14:44:00] <AlwaysNever> and then running "service mysql restart"
[14:45:05] <AlwaysNever> that will (a) truncate exinting transactional log files, and (b) not generate them any more
[14:47:48] <janrinok> that will stop it being produced. What is using it? Is it being read by something else? Do you KNOW what it is for in this instance?
[14:48:58] <AlwaysNever> It is a transactional log internal to MySQL, it is used if you want to restore the database to a specific point in time, it is of no use in a web application where a daily backup suffices
[14:49:50] <AlwaysNever> if you are running a banking application, you may want to restore to a specific point in time, but SN is not such an application
[14:50:17] <janrinok> I know what it does, thank you. But your answer is NO. if we stop it and the site crashes, NCommander will not be interested in fixing it because we broke it. We do know that else might depend upon it.
[14:51:28] <AlwaysNever> nothing else can depend on it , as those MySQL transactional log files are INTERNAL and PRIVATE to MySQL
[14:51:40] <janrinok> We don't know if it is compared with a duplicate server, or the backup server, or anything or nothing. Just wait until we get the transfer completed and you can all volunteer to help as sys-admins on the staff.
[14:51:47] <fab23> as far as I know from other installation, could help in recovery after crash and also is needed for replication (but as far as I know, SN does not have replication any more)
[14:51:48] <AlwaysNever> just tell MySQL no to generate them
[14:53:15] <janrinok> AlwaysNever, please volunteer to be a sys-admin. Taking actions without knowing what the consequence will be is not a good technique. Somebody set it up for a purpose. Unfortunately they did not document that purpose or its limits.
[14:53:33] <fab23> unfortunately my private systems are running with MariaDB since a long time, so no mysql playground available, I don't want to mess with company systems.
[14:53:38] <janrinok> so are mine
[14:54:35] <AlwaysNever> janrinok: "Somebody set it up for a purpose" - No, it is just the NEW default config of MySQL 8,
[14:54:41] <fab23> MySQL has a lot of documentation online, but many details depend on the version in use.
[14:55:32] <janrinok> so who chose the partition in which it is stored? Why was it not configured to be backed up, rotated or deleted?
[14:55:38] <AlwaysNever> I was bitten by it, that why I know, and my /var filesystem filled up
[14:56:20] <fab23> janrinok: in my installation of mariadb you can give the path to this file with
[14:56:31] <janrinok> we have taken action to ensure the the drive/partition does NOT fill up again.
[14:56:32] <fab23> log_bin = /path/to/mysql-bin
[14:57:20] <janrinok> fab23 - I know. But someone else can just undo that. We have NOT got control of the servers. Is nobody reading what I write?
[14:57:41] <AlwaysNever> as fab23 said, SN is not using database replication anymore, so the transactional log files of MySQL can be safely disabled
[14:57:57] <requerdanos> *probably
[14:58:04] <fab23> janrinok: sorry, yes that is an issue if more people are doing stuff on the system and not talking to each other.
[14:59:01] <fab23> AlwaysNever: during that famous live session from NC he did also remove the replication, or had done it before as it cause troubles (and the site lost data twice in a short time).
[14:59:40] <fab23> but it was some commercial version of MySQL with probably master-master replication (which is not available in the free version).
[15:00:48] <AlwaysNever> in that famous live session, NC simplied greatly the previous SN infraestructure
[15:01:07] <AlwaysNever> it was done in a banzai! way, but it needed to be done
[15:01:12] <requerdanos> simplified the documentation of same, too, right down to nothing.
[15:01:17] <janrinok> and broke it, and never fixed it, and nev er documented it
[15:01:56] <janrinok> kerberos still doesn't work. We rely on that to move from server to server. I cannot get around the system any more.
[15:03:26] <janrinok> AlwaysNever, if you think that the update was done correctly - can I please tactfully withdraw my invitation to you to become a sys-admin. Not many people around here now believe it was a good move.
[15:05:48] <AlwaysNever> janrinok: I said the previous SN infraestructure (kerberos, replication, etc.) was overkill and needed to be simplified; I also say NC did it in a banzai! way without proper precautions and working backups available
[15:06:38] <AlwaysNever> I also decline to syadmin SN, as there is much infighting and drama of which I want to take no part
[15:16:14] <AlwaysNever> MySQL 8 does keep the transactional logs for 30 days, that is a new default which was not in previous MySQL versions - I've read here that the problem happened "after some updates to the system"... All the pieces of the puzzle fit it
[15:16:53] <AlwaysNever> either change MySQL to keep it's transactional logs for less days, or disable them completely - I would advocate the later.
[15:17:29] <janrinok> I will pass on your advice
[15:18:04] <janrinok> sorry that can be read two ways - I will pass your advice on to the appropriate person.
[15:18:33] <AlwaysNever> ok, thanks, janrinok
[15:25:09] <AlwaysNever> also, it the database server is a VM, it should be have its backups done of-it-all-as-a-whole, at the hypervisor or storage level, and not on a per-directory level inside the system
[15:25:20] <AlwaysNever> *if the database
[15:25:59] <AlwaysNever> that way there is no risk of "missing something"
[15:27:04] <fab23> I am ususally MySQL / MariaDB Backups with mysqlbackup, have a shell script doing each database individually and even keeping the backups for a defined time.
[15:27:18] <fab23> add doing where it fits. :)
[15:28:18] <fab23> AlwaysNever: I think even if the SN systems are VMs, they don't have access to the layer below. As it usually is, when you rent VMs from hosters.
[15:29:45] <AlwaysNever> backing up a Linux database on-line is notably difficult, if you don't want to freeze the datase while doing the backup, and it generally involves quiescing the database, making a filesystem snapshot, backing up the content of the snapshot, and then deleting that filesystem snapshot - it is a complicated bussiness, it can be avoided if the database server is a VM, doing the backup of-it-all at they hypervisor or storage level
[15:30:35] <fab23> or doing the backup on a replication, if it really does need to be 100% consistent, with stopping the repliaction.
[15:33:11] <AlwaysNever> fab23: but I think kolie owns the hosting where the VMs of SN run, so he could help with those backups at the hypervisor or storage level
[15:35:31] <AlwaysNever> usually, all VPS hosting which is "managed hosting" offers the backup option for the VMs it runs
[15:36:43] <AlwaysNever> still, it would be recommened to have an internal backup done weekly and sent of-site, but the daily backup should be made at the hypervisor level and be manages by the hosring provider
[15:37:50] <AlwaysNever> *hosting provider
[15:39:11] <fab23> AlwaysNever: according to whois the IP 23.239.29.31 belongs to Linode (now part of Akamai)
[15:41:44] <AlwaysNever> I haven been following the "Meta" articles of SN, last I knew about this the servers were to be migrating to a hosting under the control of kolie
[15:41:56] <AlwaysNever> *I haven't
[15:42:15] <fab23> I guess the whole situation is still messy
[15:46:00] <AlwaysNever> well, at least the site survives to this day - but to be honest, I was expecting the messy situation to be fixed already, it's been so long since NC unilaterally decided to close SN and then reverted his decision
[15:48:17] <AlwaysNever> ok, let change subject - I've been thing lately: is not a BBS just the poor man's emulation of an open-access multi-user UNIX system?
[15:48:29] <AlwaysNever> FIDO email --> Internet email
[15:48:41] <AlwaysNever> bulleting boards --> USENET groups
[15:49:07] <AlwaysNever> Z-modem uploads/downloads --> FTP access
[15:49:32] <AlwaysNever> dial up --> Telnet/SSH via the Internet
[15:49:53] <fab23> sure, all has a history somewhere
[15:50:31] <AlwaysNever> BBS was for MS-DOS systems, where the sysop could not get an Internet link and a UNIX system
[15:50:32] <fab23> even the Amiga hat a unix like CLI
[15:51:10] <fab23> I had a BBS running on Amiga, but no binaries, just discussion groups.
[15:52:23] <fab23> with clever software where the client could connect and up/download the new messages and disconnect again to then be read / answered offline (dial up in Europe was expensive)
[15:52:25] <AlwaysNever> fab23: but would you have had a BBS with discussion groups, if you could have hosted a USENET peered node?
[15:53:01] <fab23> it was in the late 1980 or such, no internet yet. :)
[15:53:12] <requerdanos> Speaking for me, at the time, running a bbs seemed a lot easier than running anything under the unix of the day
[15:53:23] <fab23> ok, somewhere there was later even an gateway so you could send emails out into the internet
[15:53:40] <requerdanos> fidonet had an internet mail gateway, for example.
[15:54:21] <fab23> multiple BBS exchanged the group, was some mostly German speaking Network called Z-Netz, but also had gateway into the Fido world for some local Amiga related groups.
[15:55:29] <fab23> started the BBS when I had ISDN, as with that the call time was really short so you could like fetch new things from uptream every hour or two.
[15:56:48] <AlwaysNever> the BBS "scene" is like fighting against the limitarions of the vintage connectivity situation, one the Intenet arrives, the BBS "scene" makes little sense
[15:57:07] <AlwaysNever> *once the Internet arrives
[15:57:36] <fab23> I even had a gateway to UUCP, so all was there :)
[15:58:00] <fab23> and even later one the BBS had a public IP so you could telnet into it :)
[15:58:12] <fab23> s/one/on/
[15:59:31] <AlwaysNever> yes, I know BBS had all kinds of gateways to other federated networks and even to the Internet - but why keep using a badly federated BBS discussion group, when you finally get USENET access? Same with Internet email?
[16:02:13] <requerdanos> local pride, perceived signal to noise, could be many reasons, none that have stood the test of time
[16:03:19] <AlwaysNever> I was reserching the BBS history/situation, and I was surprised to discover the is a "BBS package" for Debian...
[16:04:38] <AlwaysNever> I mean, if you have a Debian system and an Internet link, and you want to host a community of users, just make a pubunix or public "tilde" server, don't just put up a "BBS site"
[16:19:58] <AlwaysNever> fab23: when did you finally shut down you Amiga BBS?, what were like the final times of running it?
[16:33:34] -!- mode/#soylent [-r #soylent] by chromas
[16:46:35] <chromas> maybe hanging onto the bbs was the same as people now hanging onto gopher and stuff
[16:49:31] <chromas> another reason for doing a bbs is nostalgia and having piles of now-useless modems sitting around
[17:33:21] <ted-ious> Do modems even work anymore?
[17:33:31] <ted-ious> Everybody has voip for their phone lines.
[17:34:22] <ted-ious> I know that fax machines don't work very well over voip and fax is just a modem plus a scanner.
[17:34:27] <chromas> You can get or make all the hardware you need to build your own pots network now
[17:35:14] <ted-ious> Then you only need a few million miles of cables to hook it up. :)
[17:37:16] <chromas> well you build your own local network, then you dial up a local modem, proxy through the net to somewhere else, where a modem dials up another modem on their net :)
[17:37:42] <chromas> modem -> pots -> modem -> internet -> modem -> pots -> modem
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[19:06:47] <drussell> The fastest "56k" speed I ever got was an analog Courier on a Vonage VOIP adapter calling into my 3Com RAS1500 or USR I-modem rack connected to the phone system via ISDN. Got a "CONNECT 53333"
[19:07:39] <drussell> FAX works awesome over VOIP.
[19:08:22] <drussell> (PROPERLY IMPLEMENTED VOIP, that is!!)
[19:11:22] -!- fliptop has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
[19:22:34] <chromas> "properly implemented" is a feature of many a problem's crux
[19:25:08] <drussell> Indubitably
[19:25:08] <drussell> !!
[19:25:38] * chromas awkwards the statement
[19:26:09] <drussell> For VOIP, your adapter must be "smart" enough to properly switch to, essentially, a raw-PCM codec in order for data calls to function properly.
[19:26:31] <drussell> The specifications exist, but it has to actually be properly implemented.
[19:27:02] <drussell> If a data call doesn't work, I would return the hardware as defective.
[19:27:08] <drussell> DEFECTIVE!
[19:27:41] <chromas> I couldn't even get 56 on a real phone line
[19:27:55] <requerdanos> quote a bit of !defective! hardware floating around
[19:28:01] <drussell> You CAN'T get 56k on a real phone line. ONLY VOIP.
[19:28:32] <drussell> You can only get 50666 on an actual phone line.
[19:28:33] <chromas> I couldn't even get 28.8 when that was my modem speed. The couple times I did allegedly get it, it was far slower than slower speeds
[19:29:09] <drussell> 53333 and 56000 are only available on a private PBX or a VOIP adapter or whatever.
[19:29:46] <drussell> FCC and CRTC regulations forbid the TX power necessary over the actual POTS lines to prevent crosstalk to adjacent pairs.
[19:29:52] <chromas> 55.8 vs 57.6....round 2, fight!
[19:29:53] <drussell> It was always limited.
[19:30:16] <drussell> Of course, with ISDN it just says CONNECT 64000/DIGITAL :)
[19:30:45] <chromas> hm so if I set up my own local pots network I could get 56k because I can do whatever I want on my own lines?
[19:30:51] <drussell> Correct.
[19:31:08] <drussell> Why, do you have a DMS-100 in your basement or something?!
[19:31:11] <drussell> Friend...
[19:31:17] <chromas> no basement
[19:31:17] <drussell> My new friend... :) LOL
[19:31:24] <drussell> Crawl space?
[19:31:30] <drussell> Shed?
[19:31:35] <chromas> could probably find some on ebay though
[19:31:38] <drussell> Telco shed? :)
[19:31:54] <drussell> No radio shack, he has a TELCO SHED!
[19:32:44] <drussell> Just find a little NEC 2000 or something. Those things are GrrrrrREAT! ;)
[19:33:04] <requerdanos> I have a digium wildcard with fxs and fxo ports, presto, my own dco
[19:33:05] <chromas> maybe could get some if I knew people. We had several local dial-up ISPs in the 90s so they might still have stuff sitting around.
[19:33:35] <drussell> (NEC NEAX 2000, that is... Used to administer NEAX 2400 and 2000 systems for a big engineering company.)
[19:33:48] <drussell> We only had a lowly Electra 16/48 at our office.
[19:34:05] <drussell> Unfortunately, it was stolen from storage a few years ago. Sniff... Sniffle...
[19:35:06] <drussell> I still have dozens of phone sets, but no PBX... sniff, sniffle...
[19:35:47] <chromas> Can you set up asterisk?
[19:36:03] <chromas> get one of those buttcoin mining motherboards with all the 1-lane pcie slots and stuff it with winmodems
[19:37:34] <requerdanos> actually it's easier nowadays to just use fxs analog terminal adapters
[19:38:01] <drussell> What I really want for nostalgia is some sort of ISDN equivalent of an FXS port so I could run my ISDN equipment "VOIP-style"
[19:38:08] <drussell> Then I'd fire my BBS back up. ;)
[19:38:39] <drussell> I even found my QuickBBS regstration code recently, I have it running in a DOSBOX on this laptop... haha
[19:40:08] <drussell> Unfortunately, I have NOT stumbled across any backups of my actual BBS machine from the early 90s. Sniff, sniffle...
[19:40:57] <drussell> It was online from about 87 until 1992 or 1993.
[19:41:33] <drussell> Then I basically became an ISP instead.
[19:41:47] <requerdanos> hey, got to use the modems for something
[19:43:49] <drussell> Yeah, somewhere I still have a bunch of analog Couriers, the RAS1500 (which was getting flakey, it was one I got as a replacement under warranty) and a USR Total Control I-Modem MP/8 and an MP/16
[19:46:21] <drussell> I think I might even have one of the USR Total Control NetServer/8 or /16s still in that random lump of decaying electronics, too... I don't recall anymore.
[19:47:00] <drussell> I know I kept a bunch of the plain modems and I-Modems. I got rid of all the Vipers, though.
[19:48:16] <drussell> (Vipers and the ISDN individual I-Modems... I kept a couple rackmount multiple-unit ones, though.)
[20:22:25] <AlwaysNever> https://www.youtube.com
[20:22:26] <systemd> ^ 03BBS The Documentary: Episode 1 of 8: BAUD (The Beginning)
[20:31:48] <AlwaysNever> it's a slow-paced documentary, from an era befoce ADD
[22:04:26] <chromas> Before people figured out intros and slow talking is a time sink that whiles away their limited lifespan that could be used more efficiently by doomscrolling dank memes