#soylent | Logs for 2023-06-21
« return
[01:12:51] -!- AzumaHazuki [AzumaHazuki!~hazuki@the.end.of.time] has joined #soylent
[02:47:39] <kolie> ok post is tmw. needed revision and i havent seen it yet.
[06:04:48] -!- AzumaHazuki has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
[06:16:26] -!- dw861 has quit [Quit: Leaving]
[09:51:06] <janrinok> kolie - elected by whom? The other 2 board members? So it is still the same people pulling the strings. I do not see this as progress or change.
[09:56:15] <janrinok> but I hope that you are now in a position to influence significantly more changes
[10:26:21] -!- aristarchus [aristarchus!~NobodyImp@212.102.xl.zqp] has joined #soylent
[11:35:35] <aristarchus> Nine Days!
[11:38:03] -!- aristarchus has quit [Quit: Leaving]
[12:43:23] <janrinok> " ok post is tmw. needed revision and i havent seen it yet" - why do you need to see a statement from NCommander? Why does it need you to approve it?
[13:01:21] <mechanicjay> I'm glad i finally went to bed and didn't stay up refreshing the page all night!
[13:03:52] <janrinok> lol - I was up at 03:00 local time to check, but unsurprisingly it hadn't been published. It looks like they want to get the story straight first. What a way to build trust...
[13:05:18] <mechanicjay> I mean, when making an important announcement I can understand the desire to be sure that all involved parties are happy with the verbiage
[13:06:23] <mechanicjay> It's also an interesting change in behavior for NC who spews text from his finger tips as if it's silly string.
[13:06:52] <fab23> SN = SillyNews again? :)
[13:09:11] <mechanicjay> heh -- imma go grab sillynews.org
[13:24:09] <fab23> :)
[13:45:08] -!- norayr [norayr!~norayr@37.252.sq.ypj] has joined #soylent
[14:04:57] <janrinok> we usually use editors to check the content.
[14:15:57] <janrinok> If he can't even write a statement....
[14:33:58] -!- NotSanguine [NotSanguine!~notsangui@ffqg-69-243-382-744.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #soylent
[14:34:36] <janrinok> NotSanguine, hi
[14:34:46] <NotSanguine> Hey janrinok
[14:34:51] <NotSanguine> How's it hanging?
[14:34:52] <janrinok> hows things?
[14:35:04] <NotSanguine> Hanging a little to the left :)
[14:35:23] <janrinok> I'm OK - still waiting for the announcement that is coming out last Friday!
[14:35:38] <NotSanguine> things are okay over here.
[14:36:11] <NotSanguine> What announcement was that? Whether or not we're going to become a subreddit?
[14:37:01] <janrinok> We have some heavy rain that broke the month long dry spell so the garden is looking happier. Well, at least how somebody sees the future of this site.
[14:37:59] <NotSanguine> Some progress over here. I just sent kolie (can you hear me kolie?) a docker config for a systems/services monitoring environment. Hopefully we can roll that out soon.
[14:38:51] <NotSanguine> I think it's pretty clear there are folks who care and want SN to continue and succeed.
[14:39:17] <janrinok> well we will have to continue to wait and see....
[14:39:41] <NotSanguine> But I do know that the uncertainty has left you swinging in the wind. And that sucks -- and not in the fun, sexy way either
[14:40:03] <janrinok> there are still other options
[14:41:22] <NotSanguine> There are always other options. For the most part, I agree with ncommander and kolie that making sure we have a stable, reproducible environment should be the top priority.
[14:42:10] <janrinok> I disagree - we should get what we had working - the only bit that is are the stories on the front page...
[14:42:51] <janrinok> We could have had this all fixed by now.
[14:43:27] <NotSanguine> It would be nice if more folks were involved in that, especially communicating/documenting the new infrastructure, but that's really up to ncommander. And there appear to be trust issues -- not just with you and the other eds, but the community in general.
[14:44:13] <janrinok> I agree that a stable, reproducible environment is important, but it is a lot harder now to do all the things that we had resolved years ago.
[14:44:49] <NotSanguine> I suppose so. But we don't get a say in that, do we? I have time on my hands and would be happy to do more than write some docker-compose files, but my nine years here don't seem to have engendered much trust from those who care.
[14:44:54] <janrinok> we (the eds) are having it easy - they know that without stories on the front page there is no site no matter what follows.
[14:45:20] <janrinok> But the rest of the team are not being treated well at all, IMO
[14:46:12] <janrinok> Well, getting a say at this point is vital, otherwise we have to accept somebody else's vision.
[14:47:32] <janrinok> There have been lessons learned over the last 9 years but all that knowledge is now being ignored.
[14:47:47] <NotSanguine> That's a complicated issue. And by complicated, I mean that there seems to be very little anyone other than ncommander can do unless he wants it otherwise. That's not a dig at ncommander, BTW, just the reality that he holds most of the cards.
[14:48:36] <NotSanguine> That's as may be, but as I said, this is pretty much all in ncommander's hands unless and until he chooses to delegate.
[14:49:08] <janrinok> He only owns the domain. The community should be able to choose how we move forward, and they can also choose who they wish to lead us. Him decreeing that somebody else will be front of stage doesn't change anything.
[14:51:32] <NotSanguine> " Him decreeing that somebody else will be front of stage doesn't change anything." That's not what I meant by delegating. I meant vesting folks with authority to communicate, gather requirements/community ideas and create processes to incorporate such things. As well as involving the appropriate tech resources.
[14:51:56] <janrinok> I know - I was challenging what you said, I am commenting on what is actually happening.
[14:52:07] <janrinok> *I wasn't
[14:52:44] <NotSanguine> I don't know what's in ncommander's mind WRT who he trusts and what he sees as the future. I wish he'd share more of that.
[14:53:18] <janrinok> That is exactly what we have been asking for for 5 weeks now. Doesn't time fly when you are enjoying yourself...
[14:53:20] <NotSanguine> Gotcha. But given the current circumstance, he needs to be a key player.
[14:53:36] <NotSanguine> Regardless of what you, I or anyone else thinks
[14:53:56] <janrinok> No, I disagree. "Here's the domain kolie, I'll see myself out" would be more than sufficient.
[14:55:54] <NotSanguine> But that's not going to happen and you know it. Just as you (and I and others) feel proprietary about SN, the community and what we've built (and destroyed) here over almost ten years, I'm sure ncommander (despite his minimal public involvement) feels the same way.
[14:56:10] <janrinok> He broke "A" (which at the time was still working), He also broke B, C, D and E. He is only fixing A. We fixed E before we were locked out.
[14:57:34] <NotSanguine> And while I don't disagree with the issues you've raised around all this over the past few months, there are other perspectives.
[14:57:59] <janrinok> I know, we are waiting to hear another that is 5 days late.
[14:58:59] <NotSanguine> I know that sounds wishy washy, but we should be able to disagree and still be able function -- and it's the dysfunction of the past few years (more from a user standpoint than from a technical one) that have brought us to this point, methinks.
[15:00:23] <janrinok> NC didn't clean the front pages up, we did. NC didn't tackle the sock puppets, we did. NC didn't get involved in the doxxing problem, we did.
[15:00:25] <NotSanguine> As for the technical issues, I think things were poorly planned and rushed back in November, but if I was in that situation, I might have made similar decisions (although I certainly wouldn't have live-streamed it to boost my brand).
[15:01:27] <NotSanguine> An excellent point. And you (and the other eds) did so with (mostly) the full support of the user community.
[15:01:30] <janrinok> He didn't like what the site had become - but he walked away 2 years ago with a written resignation (which never got published) rather than change things.
[15:02:01] -!- halibut has quit [Quit: Timeout]
[15:02:14] <NotSanguine> I do understand your frustration, but to butcher the immortal bard, now's now the time to argue over who killed who.
[15:02:23] <NotSanguine> Not the time
[15:02:42] <janrinok> We all make mistakes, but owning our own mistakes is vital . Blaming others for what happened is simply unacceptable.
[15:02:48] <NotSanguine> At least in my opinion
[15:03:22] <janrinok> I agree with you. But we cannot continue into the future until it changes at a much higher level than us.
[15:03:24] <NotSanguine> Again, I don't disagree, but being butt hurt over it isn't going to improve the site is it?
[15:04:06] <janrinok> This is not an isolated incident. This is only the worst and most public of several similar episodes.
[15:04:26] <NotSanguine> Absolutely. BUt we can only do what we can do, right?
[15:04:45] <janrinok> And while he still controls the on/off key to the site then nothing will move forward with any degree of certainty
[15:05:01] <NotSanguine> And being confrontational about it isn't going to help either
[15:06:10] <janrinok> That is my role. Others can take part in the negotiations. I am trying to let the community know exactly what is being said and what is happening. Without any spin.
[15:06:19] <NotSanguine> Another fair point, yes. But that's how it is right now, so why don't we at least try to engage rather than be angry and demand that folks leave. We've had too many leave as it is
[15:06:21] -!- halibut [halibut!~halibut@CanHazVHOST/halibut] has joined #soylent
[15:07:30] <NotSanguine> You've been really good at doing so, and I thank you for that. But you're angry and frustrated and that comes through pretty clearly -- with little good effect, IMHO.
[15:07:31] <janrinok> There are still lots of issues that are currently unaddressed. Until we get the next announcement we do not know if any of them are being considered. Perhaps everything will be perfect in 1 hours time, or whenever. But I am not gambling on it.
[15:08:00] <NotSanguine> On another topic, may I make a personal suggestion?
[15:08:09] <janrinok> I am angry because all that happened is that innocent people got blamed unfairly.
[15:08:18] <janrinok> course you mat
[15:08:22] <janrinok> *may
[15:08:46] <janrinok> and as a result they have been locked out after 9 years.
[15:09:39] <NotSanguine> I've noted that you have made a habit of interacting with whichever ACs (Ari and/or others) are making nasty comments, especially bashing you and their "unfair" treatment.
[15:09:40] <janrinok> others are taking a different approach. It is a team effort. I AM angry and deservedly so, IMO
[15:10:09] <NotSanguine> As the old saw goes, "don't feed the trolls." You're just encouraging them. Just mod them troll/spam as appropriate and ignore them
[15:12:06] <janrinok> We have tried that. But what happens is that the ACs start making false statements which the community begin to believe. We have never stopped any new members from joining the site - but several people asked when would they be permitted to join again? You cannot let things like that go unchallenged. I have tried to provide the honest statement which I have backed up with evidence.
[15:12:14] <NotSanguine> And yes, I understand you're angry. That's very clear. But suffusing pretty much every post with that anger isn't very helpful. I am emphatically *not* saying you shouldn't express yourself, but in the context of trying to save the site, it's counterproductive. Perhaps separate journal entries detailing the atrocities, rather than including them in updates?
[15:13:22] <janrinok> It is a recognised technique - you start saying things that cannot be allowed to stand. There has to be a response.
[15:14:08] <NotSanguine> I get that. And you're right. Perhaps there's a better way, though? Regular (as TMB used to do) Meta posts about new user signups, AC comments/moderation, etc? With the caveat that no AC comments are allowed for *those* posts?
[15:14:37] <NotSanguine> THat way, you can get the accurate info out without encouraging certain folks.
[15:14:46] <janrinok> Are you suggesting that ACs go back on the front pages?
[15:15:21] <NotSanguine> No. I'm suggesting that *you* post accurate information without engaging the trolls.
[15:15:48] <NotSanguine> Which you're doing anyway, but most of it gets lost in the back and forth -- because they're trolls.
[15:15:56] <janrinok> That is exactly what I am doing.
[15:16:08] <NotSanguine> And they just *love* getting your back up.
[15:16:31] <janrinok> It doesn't worry me.
[15:16:56] <NotSanguine> Doing so in the comments just gives the trolls an opportunity to dilute what you're saying. Use your bully pulpit to provide that sort of info without directly engaging.
[15:16:58] <janrinok> I tend to pick 2 specific times of the day for that task
[15:17:16] <NotSanguine> It may not bother you, but it significantly degrades the signal/noise ratio
[15:18:34] <NotSanguine> Users will retain (and give more credence to) the content of a meta post than to repeated comments replying to trollich jackasses. Just sayin'. Again, I am *emphatically* not telling you what to do
[15:18:38] <janrinok> with ACs? Yes it does. I proposed a solution which they rejected, as is their right. It is now for them to solve the problems that hey have. If they want to live as they do in somebody else's journal I don't care.
[15:19:02] <janrinok> My focus is the front page. I want more genuine members, not more ACs.
[15:19:29] <NotSanguine> Absolutely, but *you* don't need to do battle with them in journals. You have the front page to do so.
[15:19:50] <NotSanguine> And they can't spout their lies there eitehr
[15:20:59] <janrinok> They don't read the front page - they don't care what I write until it embarrasses them personally. When they get their lies show up in public. And I don't lose sleep over any of that.
[15:21:47] <NotSanguine> Right. But if your concern is that the community will believe the bulshit, use the front page (rather than replying to the trolls in journals) to set the record straight.
[15:22:29] <NotSanguine> and it doesn't need to be done in a confrontational way. Just post the actual facts and data that gives the lie to the trollich crap
[15:22:39] <janrinok> I understand what you are saying - but that to me is appeasement. I should turn a blind eye. After all, Germany didn't invade my country, So what does it matter?
[15:23:26] <janrinok> If it disrupts others I am sorry, but I am not accepting a 'safe space' for trolls. No.
[15:23:29] <NotSanguine> You just said you don't care about the journals. So I guess I'm a little confused.
[15:25:14] <janrinok> I care about the journals - I also care about the AC's that disrupt them now that they cannot do anything on the front pages. I also care about them treating the Polls the same way. I care so much I will continue to oppose them.
[15:25:57] <NotSanguine> Anyway, like I said, it was some unsolicited advice. And I don't expect anything from it, just sharing my thoughts.
[15:26:27] <janrinok> and I appreciate it. But it isn't causing me any stress or extra work.
[15:27:25] <NotSanguine> In that case, go get 'em jan! Make 'em hurt! Except that won't happen, but if it gives you satisfaction, I totally get it.
[15:27:43] <janrinok> It won't make their lives any easier either
[15:27:51] <kolie> aroundish
[15:28:17] <NotSanguine> s'truth. But they want your attention and focus. So you're giving them exactly what they want
[15:28:51] <kolie> IS there an NC post in the queue?
[15:28:51] <NotSanguine> hey kolie. Nothing pressing. Just wanted to let you know I'd gotten back to you
[15:29:24] <kolie> Thanks I got the email - havent looked at anything - next couple days going to be involved in some other things. If I find some time I'll reply.
[15:29:30] <NotSanguine> apparently so
[15:29:32] <NotSanguine> Meta 06/22 08:06 Updates From SoylentNews PBC
[15:29:46] <janrinok> seen#
[15:30:12] <NotSanguine> No worries, kolie. Whenever you have time. I'm not going to be around much the next few days myself.
[15:30:30] <kolie> Awesome - im running a 40 person training for the next three days.
[15:30:43] <kolie> I'll be doing SN stuff later in the days.
[15:30:48] <janrinok> kolie - why is it set to go out tomorrow? People are waiting for this. Can I release it now pse?
[15:31:12] <kolie> NC wanted me to one through it
[15:31:13] <NotSanguine> I'm hanging with my brother and his wife -- not as impactful as a big training session, but I enjoy them. :)
[15:31:16] <kolie> reading rn.
[15:33:05] <kolie> Yea greenlight it.
[15:33:25] <kolie> I got some nits with it but it'll do.
[15:33:49] <NotSanguine> Will you share those nits in the comments? I hope so.
[15:34:33] <NotSanguine> Not trying to create drama, but the hoi polloi deserve to be in on the discussions as much as possible, IMHO
[15:36:33] <NotSanguine> I'm going to bounce. I look forward to reading NC's post.
[15:37:01] <NotSanguine> Nice catching up with you janrinok. Please keep up the good work!
[15:38:38] <NotSanguine> kolie, if you'd email me when you've had a chance to look that stuff over, I'd appreciate it. As I likely won't be on IRC for a few days.
[15:38:56] -!- NotSanguine has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de]
[15:59:56] <kolie> So outstanding broken items - what's that looking like right now.
[16:01:54] <chromas> well, I can't build fire/waterfox because it wants a version of mp4parse that won't compile :)
[16:04:14] <chromas> in NC's story, the dept. should be an ascii progress bar
[16:05:14] <chromas> or an animated jif of a Windows progress bar that resets right before it fills
[16:07:31] <janrinok> Can't get into the wiki - and there is no obvious way to reset/recover a password for it.
[16:19:50] <chromas> no spam filter on the email too
[16:55:59] <kolie> Which email is lacking spam filtering, sn.org?
[16:56:42] <kolie> What was setup previously for that that isn't working?
[16:57:01] <kolie> Or is this an add?
[16:58:41] <mechanicjay> kolie: spam filtering on incoming stuff had been shaky for a while
[16:58:51] <kolie> Ok - proposed solutions?
[16:59:25] <mechanicjay> check that freshclam and sa-update have run recently
[17:00:07] <mechanicjay> ensure the the zenhouse rbl list is being referenced.
[17:00:25] <kolie> Alright - so re: mail as it is now - I've built a new setup that I want to move all the mail boxes to.
[17:00:31] <mechanicjay> audioguy did a bunch of tuning on that a year or so ago which helped a lot
[17:00:43] <kolie> So I'll look at the current setup but it's not likely to be that way in a few weeks.
[17:00:59] <kolie> It's more or less the same.
[17:01:14] <kolie> I can share the recipe for the email system
[17:01:18] <kolie> And we can include the tuning.
[17:07:51] -!- norayr [norayr!~norayr@37.252.sq.ypj] has parted #soylent
[17:13:43] -!- norayr [norayr!~norayr@37.252.sq.ypj] has joined #soylent
[18:21:57] <AlwaysNever> Oh, shiny new Meta post in the front page!...
[18:24:21] -!- AlwaysNever has quit [Quit: Time wasted on IRC: 21 hours 33 minutes 27 seconds]
[18:26:28] -!- AlwaysNever [AlwaysNever!~donaldo@90.57.2.045.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #soylent
[18:38:37] <AlwaysNever> OK, I've read the NC post on the front page; he is not going away or stepping down or going to resign or anything of that kind
[18:38:52] <AlwaysNever> very disappointing
[18:40:03] <AlwaysNever> I hope the Editors and Staff have a plan B... let's go somewhere else, I don't want to be in a place where NC keeps the power to suddently anyday push the OFF button, AGAIN.
[18:40:52] <kolie> Had a discussion elsewhere.
[18:41:16] <kolie> There will be a board election / appointment in the end of july.,
[18:42:02] <kolie> The only discussion in the PBC - is how NC isn't involved down the road - and it took steps yesterday to make that happen and continues down that path.
[18:42:26] <kolie> He can't unilaterally at his own whim close down the site.
[18:42:33] <kolie> I will hold him accountable on that one.
[18:42:46] <kolie> I'm now actually in a place to do so.
[18:42:52] <kolie> No off buttons.
[18:43:39] <kolie> He will give up his president board role - that's been discussed - and the july meeting is a likely point for that as any.
[18:44:25] <kolie> He has expressed his desire to step down - the board and everyone knows and agrees - and that is the direction everyone is going to.
[18:44:49] <kolie> The only way that this DOESNT hold - is if I roll over.
[18:45:01] <kolie> I'm here to make sure that doesn't happen.
[18:46:49] <AlwaysNever> ok, man kolie in what a rattle snake nest you are in! :)
[18:47:25] <kolie> I mean - it's not as bad as it looks on the outside is my current opinion.
[18:48:39] <AlwaysNever> If NC is going to be in such a protracted stepping down process, he HAS to address this concern: Will he keep himself isolated from the Staff, or is he going to resume normal comnunications with the Staff?
[18:49:07] <kolie> I speak for the PBC.
[18:49:19] <kolie> NC is assisting me with technicalities.
[18:49:33] <kolie> I don't know what you might want to talk to or address with him.
[18:49:50] <kolie> I don't like that hes not here having these talks.
[18:49:58] <kolie> But - I know speak in capacity of the PBC.
[18:50:39] <kolie> So personal reasons aside - his involvement in the community is redundant at this time.
[18:51:24] <AlwaysNever> well, in this front page post NC says he is kick starting from IRC meeting and taking questions for it or some such
[18:52:01] <AlwaysNever> It looks like NC want's to bypass Staff and be cheered by the populance
[18:52:46] <kolie> That's my doings.
[18:52:57] <kolie> I am calling for regular meetings.
[18:53:00] <AlwaysNever> *kick starting an IRC meeting
[18:53:17] <kolie> He didn't want to be around on that one.
[18:53:30] <kolie> I twisted his arm.
[18:53:43] <kolie> This needs to happen in the open with all parties.
[18:53:56] <kolie> It's not an open format just because of dog pile concerns.
[18:54:31] <kolie> That was the concession I made - as long as it's civil and he doesn't just get pure vitriol ( lol chance 10% ) then it'll be alright
[18:54:43] <AlwaysNever> It very odd the NC is setting the Roadmap and the Milestones, but at the same time it is a PBC thing only, he is not requesting nor getting Staff assistance in all of that - that's weird
[18:55:09] <kolie> Uhm the PBC acted - I represented the concerns of the community in that discussion as best as possible.
[18:55:31] <kolie> And we are taking questions from the community in that meeting
[18:55:41] <kolie> Specifically to get "staff assistance in all of that"
[18:56:04] <kolie> The tone and direction is largely what I've been working on and shaping.
[18:56:18] <kolie> The "roadmap and milestones" as you put it.
[18:56:52] <kolie> The roadmap is - the pbc needs to be setup for community governance - NC needs to not call the shots and hes preparing and acting to roll down his involvement
[18:56:58] <AlwaysNever> kolie: I hope you get the Editor Team on board, they curate the front page, without them there is just an empty carcass of a site
[18:57:03] <kolie> The board is expanding in light of that work.
[18:57:08] <kolie> I know - ongoing discussions.
[18:57:33] <kolie> I'm being as transparent and open about the direction as possible. I will say not all involved are happy - they want immediate resignation.
[18:57:51] <kolie> I don't think that's the best path - I'm not advocating for it - but I've brought up that view to the board.
[18:58:08] <kolie> The board is of the opinion that a proper transition is in everyones best interest - but a transition will occur.
[18:58:25] -!- norayr [norayr!~norayr@37.252.sq.ypj] has parted #soylent
[18:58:28] <kolie> And they isn't everyone btw.
[18:58:51] <kolie> But yea - I mean the editors want business as usual as soon as possible.
[18:59:08] <kolie> I'm really trying to get them there - some people are on board and there are some strong skeptics still.
[18:59:32] <kolie> I will say - I'm just me exploring one path - people can and should take active participation of what they want to happen - as I have myself.
[19:00:54] <AlwaysNever> the Editor put in a LOT a hours, without trust they don't know whether they are just burning their own time
[19:02:43] <kolie> Ok well if their goal is to edit and post stuff to the front page of sn - that effort isnt in vain.
[19:03:04] <AlwaysNever> we'll see what happens, I oh so very much whish I would not see another Meta post for at least 2 years, and forget all about this total snafu
[19:03:08] <kolie> That will be proceeding under my participation in the PBC.
[19:04:48] * AlwaysNever looking for SN user settings to hide all Meta posts...
[19:17:23] <AlwaysNever> found it - Preferences - Homepage - Meta - Never
[19:17:49] <fab23> AlwaysNever: SN does support anything :)
[19:29:47] <fab23> AlwaysNever: but now you may miss where the journey is going.
[20:25:31] <AlwaysNever> fab23: I'll come here to IRC to get fresh news, SN front page is not accurate reporting on itself real situation
[20:28:46] <kolie> "the board Determined to seek one or more qualified candidates to serve on the Board, with the goal of nominating at least one such candidate to the board no later than July 31, 2023"
[20:28:52] <kolie> That's from the minutes - that's the big news.
[20:32:42] <Ingar> Aristarchus or Zummi, whoever has the highest entertainment value
[20:40:21] <kolie> Ari never chats with me :(
[20:41:27] <Ingar> unfortunately, he reminds me of a troll I once knew
[20:43:20] <Ingar> and with that, we kill 80 days of uptime to reboot ye ol'e home server
[21:16:14] -!- norayr [norayr!~norayr@37.252.sq.ypj] has joined #soylent
[21:44:34] -!- NCommander [NCommander!~mcasadeva@Soylent/Staff/Sysop/mcasadevall] has joined #soylent
[21:44:34] -!- mode/#soylent [+v NCommander] by Imogen