#soylent | Logs for 2023-06-21
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[21:44:34] -!- mode/#soylent [+v NCommander] by Imogen
[21:44:34] -!- NCommander [NCommander!~mcasadeva@Soylent/Staff/Sysop/mcasadevall] has joined #soylent
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[20:43:20] <Ingar> and with that, we kill 80 days of uptime to reboot ye ol'e home server
[20:41:27] <Ingar> unfortunately, he reminds me of a troll I once knew
[20:40:21] <kolie> Ari never chats with me :(
[20:32:42] <Ingar> Aristarchus or Zummi, whoever has the highest entertainment value
[20:28:52] <kolie> That's from the minutes - that's the big news.
[20:28:46] <kolie> "the board Determined to seek one or more qualified candidates to serve on the Board, with the goal of nominating at least one such candidate to the board no later than July 31, 2023"
[20:25:31] <AlwaysNever> fab23: I'll come here to IRC to get fresh news, SN front page is not accurate reporting on itself real situation
[19:29:47] <fab23> AlwaysNever: but now you may miss where the journey is going.
[19:17:49] <fab23> AlwaysNever: SN does support anything :)
[19:17:23] <AlwaysNever> found it - Preferences - Homepage - Meta - Never
[19:04:48] * AlwaysNever looking for SN user settings to hide all Meta posts...
[19:03:08] <kolie> That will be proceeding under my participation in the PBC.
[19:03:04] <AlwaysNever> we'll see what happens, I oh so very much whish I would not see another Meta post for at least 2 years, and forget all about this total snafu
[19:02:43] <kolie> Ok well if their goal is to edit and post stuff to the front page of sn - that effort isnt in vain.
[19:00:54] <AlwaysNever> the Editor put in a LOT a hours, without trust they don't know whether they are just burning their own time
[18:59:32] <kolie> I will say - I'm just me exploring one path - people can and should take active participation of what they want to happen - as I have myself.
[18:59:08] <kolie> I'm really trying to get them there - some people are on board and there are some strong skeptics still.
[18:58:51] <kolie> But yea - I mean the editors want business as usual as soon as possible.
[18:58:28] <kolie> And they isn't everyone btw.
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[18:58:08] <kolie> The board is of the opinion that a proper transition is in everyones best interest - but a transition will occur.
[18:57:51] <kolie> I don't think that's the best path - I'm not advocating for it - but I've brought up that view to the board.
[18:57:33] <kolie> I'm being as transparent and open about the direction as possible. I will say not all involved are happy - they want immediate resignation.
[18:57:08] <kolie> I know - ongoing discussions.
[18:57:03] <kolie> The board is expanding in light of that work.
[18:56:58] <AlwaysNever> kolie: I hope you get the Editor Team on board, they curate the front page, without them there is just an empty carcass of a site
[18:56:52] <kolie> The roadmap is - the pbc needs to be setup for community governance - NC needs to not call the shots and hes preparing and acting to roll down his involvement
[18:56:18] <kolie> The "roadmap and milestones" as you put it.
[18:56:04] <kolie> The tone and direction is largely what I've been working on and shaping.
[18:55:41] <kolie> Specifically to get "staff assistance in all of that"
[18:55:31] <kolie> And we are taking questions from the community in that meeting
[18:55:09] <kolie> Uhm the PBC acted - I represented the concerns of the community in that discussion as best as possible.
[18:54:43] <AlwaysNever> It very odd the NC is setting the Roadmap and the Milestones, but at the same time it is a PBC thing only, he is not requesting nor getting Staff assistance in all of that - that's weird
[18:54:31] <kolie> That was the concession I made - as long as it's civil and he doesn't just get pure vitriol ( lol chance 10% ) then it'll be alright
[18:53:56] <kolie> It's not an open format just because of dog pile concerns.
[18:53:43] <kolie> This needs to happen in the open with all parties.
[18:53:30] <kolie> I twisted his arm.
[18:53:17] <kolie> He didn't want to be around on that one.
[18:53:00] <AlwaysNever> *kick starting an IRC meeting
[18:52:57] <kolie> I am calling for regular meetings.
[18:52:46] <kolie> That's my doings.
[18:52:01] <AlwaysNever> It looks like NC want's to bypass Staff and be cheered by the populance
[18:51:24] <AlwaysNever> well, in this front page post NC says he is kick starting from IRC meeting and taking questions for it or some such
[18:50:39] <kolie> So personal reasons aside - his involvement in the community is redundant at this time.
[18:49:58] <kolie> But - I know speak in capacity of the PBC.
[18:49:50] <kolie> I don't like that hes not here having these talks.
[18:49:33] <kolie> I don't know what you might want to talk to or address with him.
[18:49:19] <kolie> NC is assisting me with technicalities.
[18:49:07] <kolie> I speak for the PBC.
[18:48:39] <AlwaysNever> If NC is going to be in such a protracted stepping down process, he HAS to address this concern: Will he keep himself isolated from the Staff, or is he going to resume normal comnunications with the Staff?
[18:47:25] <kolie> I mean - it's not as bad as it looks on the outside is my current opinion.
[18:46:49] <AlwaysNever> ok, man kolie in what a rattle snake nest you are in! :)
[18:45:01] <kolie> I'm here to make sure that doesn't happen.
[18:44:49] <kolie> The only way that this DOESNT hold - is if I roll over.
[18:44:25] <kolie> He has expressed his desire to step down - the board and everyone knows and agrees - and that is the direction everyone is going to.
[18:43:39] <kolie> He will give up his president board role - that's been discussed - and the july meeting is a likely point for that as any.
[18:42:52] <kolie> No off buttons.
[18:42:46] <kolie> I'm now actually in a place to do so.
[18:42:33] <kolie> I will hold him accountable on that one.
[18:42:26] <kolie> He can't unilaterally at his own whim close down the site.
[18:42:02] <kolie> The only discussion in the PBC - is how NC isn't involved down the road - and it took steps yesterday to make that happen and continues down that path.
[18:41:16] <kolie> There will be a board election / appointment in the end of july.,
[18:40:52] <kolie> Had a discussion elsewhere.
[18:40:03] <AlwaysNever> I hope the Editors and Staff have a plan B... let's go somewhere else, I don't want to be in a place where NC keeps the power to suddently anyday push the OFF button, AGAIN.
[18:38:52] <AlwaysNever> very disappointing
[18:38:37] <AlwaysNever> OK, I've read the NC post on the front page; he is not going away or stepping down or going to resign or anything of that kind
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[18:21:57] <AlwaysNever> Oh, shiny new Meta post in the front page!...
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[17:01:18] <kolie> And we can include the tuning.
[17:01:14] <kolie> I can share the recipe for the email system
[17:00:59] <kolie> It's more or less the same.
[17:00:43] <kolie> So I'll look at the current setup but it's not likely to be that way in a few weeks.
[17:00:31] <mechanicjay> audioguy did a bunch of tuning on that a year or so ago which helped a lot
[17:00:25] <kolie> Alright - so re: mail as it is now - I've built a new setup that I want to move all the mail boxes to.
[17:00:07] <mechanicjay> ensure the the zenhouse rbl list is being referenced.
[16:59:25] <mechanicjay> check that freshclam and sa-update have run recently
[16:58:51] <kolie> Ok - proposed solutions?
[16:58:41] <mechanicjay> kolie: spam filtering on incoming stuff had been shaky for a while
[16:57:01] <kolie> Or is this an add?
[16:56:42] <kolie> What was setup previously for that that isn't working?
[16:55:59] <kolie> Which email is lacking spam filtering, sn.org?
[16:19:50] <chromas> no spam filter on the email too
[16:07:31] <janrinok> Can't get into the wiki - and there is no obvious way to reset/recover a password for it.
[16:05:14] <chromas> or an animated jif of a Windows progress bar that resets right before it fills
[16:04:14] <chromas> in NC's story, the dept. should be an ascii progress bar
[16:01:54] <chromas> well, I can't build fire/waterfox because it wants a version of mp4parse that won't compile :)
[15:59:56] <kolie> So outstanding broken items - what's that looking like right now.
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[15:38:38] <NotSanguine> kolie, if you'd email me when you've had a chance to look that stuff over, I'd appreciate it. As I likely won't be on IRC for a few days.
[15:37:01] <NotSanguine> Nice catching up with you janrinok. Please keep up the good work!
[15:36:33] <NotSanguine> I'm going to bounce. I look forward to reading NC's post.
[15:34:33] <NotSanguine> Not trying to create drama, but the hoi polloi deserve to be in on the discussions as much as possible, IMHO
[15:33:49] <NotSanguine> Will you share those nits in the comments? I hope so.
[15:33:25] <kolie> I got some nits with it but it'll do.
[15:33:05] <kolie> Yea greenlight it.
[15:31:16] <kolie> reading rn.
[15:31:13] <NotSanguine> I'm hanging with my brother and his wife -- not as impactful as a big training session, but I enjoy them. :)
[15:31:12] <kolie> NC wanted me to one through it
[15:30:48] <janrinok> kolie - why is it set to go out tomorrow? People are waiting for this. Can I release it now pse?
[15:30:43] <kolie> I'll be doing SN stuff later in the days.
[15:30:30] <kolie> Awesome - im running a 40 person training for the next three days.
[15:30:12] <NotSanguine> No worries, kolie. Whenever you have time. I'm not going to be around much the next few days myself.
[15:29:46] <janrinok> seen#
[15:29:32] <NotSanguine> Meta 06/22 08:06 Updates From SoylentNews PBC
[15:29:30] <NotSanguine> apparently so
[15:29:24] <kolie> Thanks I got the email - havent looked at anything - next couple days going to be involved in some other things. If I find some time I'll reply.
[15:28:51] <NotSanguine> hey kolie. Nothing pressing. Just wanted to let you know I'd gotten back to you
[15:28:51] <kolie> IS there an NC post in the queue?
[15:28:17] <NotSanguine> s'truth. But they want your attention and focus. So you're giving them exactly what they want
[15:27:51] <kolie> aroundish
[15:27:43] <janrinok> It won't make their lives any easier either
[15:27:25] <NotSanguine> In that case, go get 'em jan! Make 'em hurt! Except that won't happen, but if it gives you satisfaction, I totally get it.
[15:26:27] <janrinok> and I appreciate it. But it isn't causing me any stress or extra work.
[15:25:57] <NotSanguine> Anyway, like I said, it was some unsolicited advice. And I don't expect anything from it, just sharing my thoughts.
[15:25:14] <janrinok> I care about the journals - I also care about the AC's that disrupt them now that they cannot do anything on the front pages. I also care about them treating the Polls the same way. I care so much I will continue to oppose them.
[15:23:29] <NotSanguine> You just said you don't care about the journals. So I guess I'm a little confused.
[15:23:26] <janrinok> If it disrupts others I am sorry, but I am not accepting a 'safe space' for trolls. No.
[15:22:39] <janrinok> I understand what you are saying - but that to me is appeasement. I should turn a blind eye. After all, Germany didn't invade my country, So what does it matter?
[15:22:29] <NotSanguine> and it doesn't need to be done in a confrontational way. Just post the actual facts and data that gives the lie to the trollich crap
[15:21:47] <NotSanguine> Right. But if your concern is that the community will believe the bulshit, use the front page (rather than replying to the trolls in journals) to set the record straight.
[15:20:59] <janrinok> They don't read the front page - they don't care what I write until it embarrasses them personally. When they get their lies show up in public. And I don't lose sleep over any of that.
[15:19:50] <NotSanguine> And they can't spout their lies there eitehr
[15:19:29] <NotSanguine> Absolutely, but *you* don't need to do battle with them in journals. You have the front page to do so.
[15:19:02] <janrinok> My focus is the front page. I want more genuine members, not more ACs.
[15:18:38] <janrinok> with ACs? Yes it does. I proposed a solution which they rejected, as is their right. It is now for them to solve the problems that hey have. If they want to live as they do in somebody else's journal I don't care.
[15:18:34] <NotSanguine> Users will retain (and give more credence to) the content of a meta post than to repeated comments replying to trollich jackasses. Just sayin'. Again, I am *emphatically* not telling you what to do
[15:17:16] <NotSanguine> It may not bother you, but it significantly degrades the signal/noise ratio
[15:16:58] <janrinok> I tend to pick 2 specific times of the day for that task
[15:16:56] <NotSanguine> Doing so in the comments just gives the trolls an opportunity to dilute what you're saying. Use your bully pulpit to provide that sort of info without directly engaging.
[15:16:31] <janrinok> It doesn't worry me.
[15:16:08] <NotSanguine> And they just *love* getting your back up.
[15:15:56] <janrinok> That is exactly what I am doing.
[15:15:48] <NotSanguine> Which you're doing anyway, but most of it gets lost in the back and forth -- because they're trolls.
[15:15:21] <NotSanguine> No. I'm suggesting that *you* post accurate information without engaging the trolls.
[15:14:46] <janrinok> Are you suggesting that ACs go back on the front pages?
[15:14:37] <NotSanguine> THat way, you can get the accurate info out without encouraging certain folks.
[15:14:08] <NotSanguine> I get that. And you're right. Perhaps there's a better way, though? Regular (as TMB used to do) Meta posts about new user signups, AC comments/moderation, etc? With the caveat that no AC comments are allowed for *those* posts?
[15:13:22] <janrinok> It is a recognised technique - you start saying things that cannot be allowed to stand. There has to be a response.
[15:12:14] <NotSanguine> And yes, I understand you're angry. That's very clear. But suffusing pretty much every post with that anger isn't very helpful. I am emphatically *not* saying you shouldn't express yourself, but in the context of trying to save the site, it's counterproductive. Perhaps separate journal entries detailing the atrocities, rather than including them in updates?
[15:12:06] <janrinok> We have tried that. But what happens is that the ACs start making false statements which the community begin to believe. We have never stopped any new members from joining the site - but several people asked when would they be permitted to join again? You cannot let things like that go unchallenged. I have tried to provide the honest statement which I have backed up with evidence.
[15:10:09] <NotSanguine> As the old saw goes, "don't feed the trolls." You're just encouraging them. Just mod them troll/spam as appropriate and ignore them
[15:09:40] <janrinok> others are taking a different approach. It is a team effort. I AM angry and deservedly so, IMO
[15:09:39] <NotSanguine> I've noted that you have made a habit of interacting with whichever ACs (Ari and/or others) are making nasty comments, especially bashing you and their "unfair" treatment.
[15:08:46] <janrinok> and as a result they have been locked out after 9 years.
[15:08:22] <janrinok> *may
[15:08:18] <janrinok> course you mat
[15:08:09] <janrinok> I am angry because all that happened is that innocent people got blamed unfairly.
[15:08:00] <NotSanguine> On another topic, may I make a personal suggestion?
[15:07:31] <janrinok> There are still lots of issues that are currently unaddressed. Until we get the next announcement we do not know if any of them are being considered. Perhaps everything will be perfect in 1 hours time, or whenever. But I am not gambling on it.
[15:07:30] <NotSanguine> You've been really good at doing so, and I thank you for that. But you're angry and frustrated and that comes through pretty clearly -- with little good effect, IMHO.
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[15:06:19] <NotSanguine> Another fair point, yes. But that's how it is right now, so why don't we at least try to engage rather than be angry and demand that folks leave. We've had too many leave as it is
[15:06:10] <janrinok> That is my role. Others can take part in the negotiations. I am trying to let the community know exactly what is being said and what is happening. Without any spin.
[15:05:01] <NotSanguine> And being confrontational about it isn't going to help either
[15:04:45] <janrinok> And while he still controls the on/off key to the site then nothing will move forward with any degree of certainty
[15:04:26] <NotSanguine> Absolutely. BUt we can only do what we can do, right?
[15:04:06] <janrinok> This is not an isolated incident. This is only the worst and most public of several similar episodes.
[15:03:24] <NotSanguine> Again, I don't disagree, but being butt hurt over it isn't going to improve the site is it?
[15:03:22] <janrinok> I agree with you. But we cannot continue into the future until it changes at a much higher level than us.
[15:02:48] <NotSanguine> At least in my opinion
[15:02:42] <janrinok> We all make mistakes, but owning our own mistakes is vital . Blaming others for what happened is simply unacceptable.
[15:02:23] <NotSanguine> Not the time
[15:02:14] <NotSanguine> I do understand your frustration, but to butcher the immortal bard, now's now the time to argue over who killed who.
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[15:01:30] <janrinok> He didn't like what the site had become - but he walked away 2 years ago with a written resignation (which never got published) rather than change things.
[15:01:27] <NotSanguine> An excellent point. And you (and the other eds) did so with (mostly) the full support of the user community.
[15:00:25] <NotSanguine> As for the technical issues, I think things were poorly planned and rushed back in November, but if I was in that situation, I might have made similar decisions (although I certainly wouldn't have live-streamed it to boost my brand).
[15:00:23] <janrinok> NC didn't clean the front pages up, we did. NC didn't tackle the sock puppets, we did. NC didn't get involved in the doxxing problem, we did.
[14:58:59] <NotSanguine> I know that sounds wishy washy, but we should be able to disagree and still be able function -- and it's the dysfunction of the past few years (more from a user standpoint than from a technical one) that have brought us to this point, methinks.
[14:57:59] <janrinok> I know, we are waiting to hear another that is 5 days late.
[14:57:34] <NotSanguine> And while I don't disagree with the issues you've raised around all this over the past few months, there are other perspectives.
[14:56:10] <janrinok> He broke "A" (which at the time was still working), He also broke B, C, D and E. He is only fixing A. We fixed E before we were locked out.
[14:55:54] <NotSanguine> But that's not going to happen and you know it. Just as you (and I and others) feel proprietary about SN, the community and what we've built (and destroyed) here over almost ten years, I'm sure ncommander (despite his minimal public involvement) feels the same way.
[14:53:56] <janrinok> No, I disagree. "Here's the domain kolie, I'll see myself out" would be more than sufficient.
[14:53:36] <NotSanguine> Regardless of what you, I or anyone else thinks
[14:53:20] <NotSanguine> Gotcha. But given the current circumstance, he needs to be a key player.
[14:53:18] <janrinok> That is exactly what we have been asking for for 5 weeks now. Doesn't time fly when you are enjoying yourself...
[14:52:44] <NotSanguine> I don't know what's in ncommander's mind WRT who he trusts and what he sees as the future. I wish he'd share more of that.
[14:52:07] <janrinok> *I wasn't
[14:51:56] <janrinok> I know - I was challenging what you said, I am commenting on what is actually happening.
[14:51:32] <NotSanguine> " Him decreeing that somebody else will be front of stage doesn't change anything." That's not what I meant by delegating. I meant vesting folks with authority to communicate, gather requirements/community ideas and create processes to incorporate such things. As well as involving the appropriate tech resources.
[14:49:08] <janrinok> He only owns the domain. The community should be able to choose how we move forward, and they can also choose who they wish to lead us. Him decreeing that somebody else will be front of stage doesn't change anything.
[14:48:36] <NotSanguine> That's as may be, but as I said, this is pretty much all in ncommander's hands unless and until he chooses to delegate.
[14:47:47] <NotSanguine> That's a complicated issue. And by complicated, I mean that there seems to be very little anyone other than ncommander can do unless he wants it otherwise. That's not a dig at ncommander, BTW, just the reality that he holds most of the cards.
[14:47:32] <janrinok> There have been lessons learned over the last 9 years but all that knowledge is now being ignored.
[14:46:12] <janrinok> Well, getting a say at this point is vital, otherwise we have to accept somebody else's vision.
[14:45:20] <janrinok> But the rest of the team are not being treated well at all, IMO
[14:44:54] <janrinok> we (the eds) are having it easy - they know that without stories on the front page there is no site no matter what follows.
[14:44:49] <NotSanguine> I suppose so. But we don't get a say in that, do we? I have time on my hands and would be happy to do more than write some docker-compose files, but my nine years here don't seem to have engendered much trust from those who care.
[14:44:13] <janrinok> I agree that a stable, reproducible environment is important, but it is a lot harder now to do all the things that we had resolved years ago.
[14:43:27] <NotSanguine> It would be nice if more folks were involved in that, especially communicating/documenting the new infrastructure, but that's really up to ncommander. And there appear to be trust issues -- not just with you and the other eds, but the community in general.
[14:42:51] <janrinok> We could have had this all fixed by now.
[14:42:10] <janrinok> I disagree - we should get what we had working - the only bit that is are the stories on the front page...
[14:41:22] <NotSanguine> There are always other options. For the most part, I agree with ncommander and kolie that making sure we have a stable, reproducible environment should be the top priority.
[14:40:03] <janrinok> there are still other options
[14:39:41] <NotSanguine> But I do know that the uncertainty has left you swinging in the wind. And that sucks -- and not in the fun, sexy way either
[14:39:17] <janrinok> well we will have to continue to wait and see....
[14:38:51] <NotSanguine> I think it's pretty clear there are folks who care and want SN to continue and succeed.
[14:37:59] <NotSanguine> Some progress over here. I just sent kolie (can you hear me kolie?) a docker config for a systems/services monitoring environment. Hopefully we can roll that out soon.
[14:37:01] <janrinok> We have some heavy rain that broke the month long dry spell so the garden is looking happier. Well, at least how somebody sees the future of this site.
[14:36:11] <NotSanguine> What announcement was that? Whether or not we're going to become a subreddit?
[14:35:38] <NotSanguine> things are okay over here.
[14:35:23] <janrinok> I'm OK - still waiting for the announcement that is coming out last Friday!
[14:35:04] <NotSanguine> Hanging a little to the left :)
[14:34:52] <janrinok> hows things?
[14:34:51] <NotSanguine> How's it hanging?
[14:34:46] <NotSanguine> Hey janrinok
[14:34:36] <janrinok> NotSanguine, hi
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[14:15:57] <janrinok> If he can't even write a statement....
[14:04:57] <janrinok> we usually use editors to check the content.
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[13:24:09] <fab23> :)
[13:09:11] <mechanicjay> heh -- imma go grab sillynews.org
[13:06:52] <fab23> SN = SillyNews again? :)
[13:06:23] <mechanicjay> It's also an interesting change in behavior for NC who spews text from his finger tips as if it's silly string.
[13:05:18] <mechanicjay> I mean, when making an important announcement I can understand the desire to be sure that all involved parties are happy with the verbiage
[13:03:52] <janrinok> lol - I was up at 03:00 local time to check, but unsurprisingly it hadn't been published. It looks like they want to get the story straight first. What a way to build trust...
[13:01:21] <mechanicjay> I'm glad i finally went to bed and didn't stay up refreshing the page all night!
[12:43:23] <janrinok> " ok post is tmw. needed revision and i havent seen it yet" - why do you need to see a statement from NCommander? Why does it need you to approve it?
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[11:35:35] <aristarchus> Nine Days!
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[09:56:15] <janrinok> but I hope that you are now in a position to influence significantly more changes
[09:51:06] <janrinok> kolie - elected by whom? The other 2 board members? So it is still the same people pulling the strings. I do not see this as progress or change.
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[02:47:39] <kolie> ok post is tmw. needed revision and i havent seen it yet.
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