#soylent | Logs for 2021-07-05
« return
[00:00:14] <chromas> b'gawk!
[00:17:39] -!- Ingar [Ingar!~ingar@irz-6x24cokgh6qenxl763p.96958a0.ip9.access.telenet.be] has joined #soylent
[00:18:24] <Fnord666> These chicken places have definitely gone to the birds.
[00:27:12] <chromas> https://www.thingiverse.com
[00:27:13] <systemd> ^ 03Beer Counter V3, Bottle Opener by RubenMts ( https://www.thingiverse.com )
[00:31:36] <Fnord666> Cool!
[00:32:17] <chromas> The counter might need a few more digits
[00:50:37] <Runaway1956> https://twitter.com
[00:51:11] <Runaway1956> So, the difference between soccer and rugby is, you can put hands on the ball?
[00:51:53] <Runaway1956> and, obviously, you put hands on the ass!
[01:07:53] -!- AzumaHazuki [AzumaHazuki!~hazuki@the.end.of.time] has joined #soylent
[01:14:15] -!- AzumaHazuki has quit [Quit: Leaving]
[01:14:58] -!- AzumaHazuki [AzumaHazuki!~hazuki@the.end.of.time] has joined #soylent
[01:49:29] -!- boru` [boru`!~boru@jjih-15-918-10-09.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #soylent
[01:49:32] -!- boru has quit [Killed (NickServ (GHOST command used by boru`!~boru@jjih-15-918-10-09.dynamic.mnet-online.de))]
[01:49:34] boru` is now known as boru
[02:07:58] -!- SoyCow8983 [SoyCow8983!~526613d4@82.102.ww.oli] has joined #soylent
[02:08:03] <SoyCow8983> Fuck Jew SCUM
[02:08:11] <requerdanos> .kick SoyCow8983
[02:08:11] -!- SoyCow8983 was kicked from #soylent by Aphrodite!Aphrodite@dodekatheon.olympus.gr [(requerdanos) No reason given]
[02:08:34] <Runaway1956> requerdanos on top of things - I like that
[02:20:54] <Runaway1956> uptime
[02:20:54] <Runaway1956> 21:19:35 up 27 days, 18:29
[02:21:17] <Runaway1956> Just realized I hadn't lost power in awhile -
[02:21:41] <Runaway1956> I think my all-time record uptime was a little short of 90 days
[02:35:39] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - New, Deadly Bacteria May be Lurking in US; CDC Warns of Three Puzzling Cases - https://sylnt.us - don't-let-it-happen-to-you
[02:39:13] <Runaway1956> Dozens of stories about fire on Cyprus today - this is the first that claims someone set the fire intentionally
[02:39:28] <Runaway1956> https://www.scmp.com
[02:39:29] <systemd> ^ 03Suspect arrested in connection with Cyprus mountain fire that killed four
[02:39:47] <Runaway1956> note that I haven't read all those stories - skimmed headlines on most
[03:04:43] -!- Ingar has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
[03:06:13] -!- Ingar [Ingar!~ingar@irz-6x24cokgh6qenxl763p.96958a0.ip9.access.telenet.be] has joined #soylent
[04:41:08] <chromas> https://babylonbee.com
[04:41:08] <systemd> ^ 03Bill Gates Announces He Too Will Go To Space Once His Rocket Is Finished Installing Updates
[04:43:22] <AzumaHazuki> so sometime around 2040
[06:01:40] -!- RunawayXXXX [RunawayXXXX!~8b637994@us640757.ip-150-91-573.net] has joined #soylent
[06:03:58] <RunawayXXXX> Just saying "Hi!" And to Runaway1956, I am your Father!
[06:05:46] <AzumaHazuki> lies. he's only got one helix
[06:06:10] <RunawayXXXX> And, apropoo of that:
[06:06:19] <RunawayXXXX> =submit https://www.ksl.com
[06:06:22] <systemd> ✓ Sub-ccess! "03In Fossilized Dinosaur Poop, Scientists Find Hidden Treasure" (16p) -> https://soylentnews.org
[06:07:38] <RunawayXXXX> Hazuki-chan, back at work yet?
[06:08:42] <AzumaHazuki> starting tomorrow or on the 6th I'm told
[06:08:58] <AzumaHazuki> they lost MORE people i hear so they may actually switch me onto second shift
[06:09:43] <RunawayXXXX> Take care of yourself, and don't let them overload you because of their failure to staff adequately!
[07:08:32] -!- aristarchus [aristarchus!~2d57d42b@45.87.jgs.hu] has joined #soylent
[07:10:54] <aristarchus> #Freearistarchus is still a thing!
[07:18:07] <aristarchus> But I do notice, that when Sol is visiting my part of the world, the Soylentils are silent, more than before.
[07:21:18] <RunawayXXXX> Time waits, for no man, or woman. Just the way it is.
[07:26:34] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - US Plans to Make Airlines Refund Fees if Bags are Delayed - https://sylnt.us - tyranny!
[07:31:59] <RunawayXXXX> =submit Walking the Planck https://interestingengineering.com
[07:32:03] <systemd> ✓ Sub-ccess! "03A Black Hole's Core Could be a Strange "Planck Star"" (33p) -> https://soylentnews.org
[07:32:35] <chromas> like a stuck voxel?
[07:32:54] -!- AzumaHazuki has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
[07:33:12] <RunawayXXXX> Not sure. Can you hear me now?
[07:38:39] <aristarchus> Seems to be one Planck short of a Singularity. Intriguing.
[07:38:55] <boru> That article about Planck stars is a load of shite. It's like the electric universe bellends who conveiently ignore entire fields of established astrophysics to make their theory fit.
[07:39:34] <RunawayXXXX> So, you are saying the Eds should run it?
[07:40:18] <boru> It was an interesting idea up until the conclusion where they really start reaching.
[07:42:09] <boru> The last three articles summarise the author well "I don't really know what I'm talking about", including alluding to some future article because they couldn't be arsed to qualify their statements there.
[07:45:18] <boru> They also contradict themselves in the conclusion.
[07:46:02] <aristarchus> How so?
[07:46:57] <boru> And the firewall paradox section, good grief.
[07:47:06] <boru> This is painful to read.
[07:52:34] <RunawayXXXX> You mean "some interesting implications for how the universe might bounce, and crunch, "? Possibly. This is all speculative astrophysics. If it is possible for a Planck star to exist, then the singularity is not, and the whole thing could go, . . . what is your problem with all this?
[07:53:44] <boru> Well, having a closer look, it seems the author has been writing articles for Interesting Engineering for 4 months, and the majority of them aren't about engineering, and they strike me as a science fiction fan.
[07:54:20] <boru> So I suppose I should cut them some slack. Their "7 cats" must be a handful to look after.
[07:54:51] <aristarchus> What else would Interesting Engineering be, if not SciFi?
[08:37:54] -!- RunawayXXXX has quit [Quit: Web client closed]
[09:23:09] <FatPhil> why would something with a schwartschild radius of one planck length not have an event horizon at its schwartschild radius?
[09:23:58] <aristarchus> FatPhil, always bringing radii into things!
[09:35:41] <FatPhil> only because he was irresponsibly waving a planck around.
[09:36:05] <FatPhil> health and safety, mate, there needs to be limits.
[09:37:25] <FatPhil> he also believes the virtual particles explanation of hawking radiation, including the obviously bogus negative energy part.
[09:46:18] <aristarchus> It has always been the "information" part that stymies me. Platonism coming back into fashion? But once you blow up the singularity, what is left, really?
[09:59:07] -!- aristarchus has quit []
[11:57:02] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - BitTorrent Turns 20: The File-Sharing Revolution Revisited - https://sylnt.us - no-longer-a-teenager
[12:28:17] <inz> Runaway, re the goal video, no it should be enough that the ball fully crosses the line, but none of the refs saw that the ball was in, and there was no kind of technology assistance at the time.
[12:40:30] -!- inky [inky!~inky@176.123.q.jip] has joined #soylent
[13:54:33] <Runaway1956> https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com
[13:54:34] <systemd> ^ 03Gun Meme of the Day: Independence Day Edition - The Truth About Guns
[13:54:59] <requerdanos> "Get the Truth" / "Get the Facts" means you are about to read propaganda
[13:55:23] <requerdanos> propaganda can be good or bad, but know it for what it is.
[13:56:11] <Runaway1956> Actually - the propaganda comes from the other side
[13:56:29] <requerdanos> propaganda is not unidirectional.
[13:56:42] <Runaway1956> In this case, it mostly is unidirectional
[13:56:47] <requerdanos> propaganda can be good or bad. Know it for what it is.
[13:57:25] <Runaway1956> Virtually every argument you have ever heard supporting gun control is lies and propaganda
[13:58:13] <requerdanos> Yes, and I frankly don't want "only outlaws" to have guns.
[13:58:54] <Runaway1956> That is a scary scenario - one which gun control proponents are pushing with their agenda
[13:59:25] <Runaway1956> Did ya see that 'Rising of the Moors' incident in Mass?
[13:59:34] <Runaway1956> I'm still trying to figure that one out -
[13:59:48] <Runaway1956> but they shouldn't have been accosted simply because someone saw a gun or six
[14:00:01] <requerdanos> saw headlines only
[14:00:16] <requerdanos> something about an idiotic highway protest?
[14:00:31] <Runaway1956> They were traveling to Maine
[14:00:38] <Runaway1956> someone saw a gun, called the law
[14:00:43] <Runaway1956> there was a standoff
[14:00:52] <requerdanos> guns are not illegal, that's idiotic right there
[14:01:19] <Runaway1956> exactly - even when brown men possess the guns,
[14:02:14] <requerdanos> "Man with a gun" is an expression of support for the constitution, not a crisis
[14:03:18] <Runaway1956> In today's lingo, "man with a gun" is bad, "nigga with a gun" is pure evil and must be executed immediately
[14:03:33] <Runaway1956> I don't know how those Moors survived long enough to be arrested.
[14:05:19] -!- inky has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
[14:06:13] <Runaway1956> Haha - I missed that #originalBrexit at the bottom of that meme
[14:06:42] <Runaway1956> All other exits are just imitations of our own Brexit
[15:29:13] <requerdanos> such sentiments ignore the fact that brexit--itself an idiotic non-word neologism--is britain exiting from something, which at least makes sense.
[15:29:20] -!- inky [inky!~inky@89.163.mqk.jiq] has joined #soylent
[15:31:34] <requerdanos> perhaps they're mostly just trolling to make up for this year's popular "happy treason day" memetics.
[15:35:03] <raxas> planck is overrated. all previous dogmas in history like this were shattered before. the time for sub-planck physics will come one day
[15:38:52] <requerdanos> planck's constant works pretty well in experimental determination, electron energy levels especially, enough to hint at it's being at least a special thing.
[15:39:34] <requerdanos> (please mentally remove the correct apostrophe from the above)
[15:40:05] <raxas> I consider universe a programmable machine, not a rigid machine. sooner or later, it will be hacked
[15:40:23] <requerdanos> programmable machines necessarily have underlying rules.
[15:40:44] <requerdanos> might planck's constant not be the result of observing one?
[15:42:09] <raxas> planckistic rules are just like rust or java coders pretend true machine instructions do not exist
[15:42:22] <requerdanos> fair enough I suppose.
[15:42:27] <raxas> logic is all about embedding machines
[15:43:51] <requerdanos> it would be pretty field-expanding indeed to detect or observe (or even strongly infer) sub-planck physics.
[15:49:09] <raxas> some long time ago, I hacked into an illuminati server somewhere. they had interesting discussions and papers piled there, I was interested mostly in hyperoperations then, but that's normal today. one idea was special: they consider timespace a _control_protocol_, not entity
[15:50:21] <raxas> a completely different philosophy in compare to public common academism
[15:51:42] <raxas> so, by different (or slightly modified) protocol, you get a different timespace from the universe
[15:52:13] <requerdanos> using a different paradigm might help you tease out different results, but it's still the same spacetime you're looking at
[15:58:47] <raxas> another problem related to it is, how exactly the universe constructs a consciousnes (like mine, for example). that's part of the timespace protocol
[16:01:37] <Runaway1956> consciousness exists outside of the spacetime continuum, which is why we all know that we are immortal
[16:01:48] <Runaway1956> we are just visitors here
[16:01:57] <requerdanos> Since the procedure for constructing consciousness is not known, it cannot be said to be or not be part of any particular protocol.
[16:03:42] <requerdanos> got to wonder what a consciousness outside spacetime does to measure time and space.
[16:03:45] <t3> conciousness is just an illusion, a fancy interface for external inputs
[16:04:16] <raxas> see, different opinions... and this is why I consider all attempts to synthesize a machine consciousness most important research of all
[16:05:21] <raxas> and I believe the _purpose_ of the whole universe was originally an attempt by "someone else" to solve this problem
[16:05:50] <raxas> and that's why I think the universe is a machine
[16:06:08] <raxas> it itself is a synthesis made
[16:12:31] -!- inky has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
[16:25:47] <FatPhil> consciousness is an ill-defined concept.
[16:27:20] <FatPhil> nothing that I have read or seen is strong enough to shake me from a position of just considering consciousness to be an emergent phenomenon in a complex biological system.
[16:27:53] <requerdanos> need a system be biological to produce that which we would call consciousness?
[16:31:12] <FatPhil> did I state a need?
[16:31:13] <t3> how would we even know if anything is concious, including ourselves?
[16:32:00] <requerdanos> no, raxas was talking about research towards creating an artificial consciousness, for which there would be a need.
[16:32:09] <FatPhil> easy, use a definition of consciousness that makes such an induction easy.
[16:32:31] <requerdanos> I would think learning to communicate with something would be the first step to know if it's conscious, and then asking it.
[16:33:12] <FatPhil> what makes you think that an "artificial consciousness" is definitionally conscious? Is "vegan cheese" cheese?
[16:33:42] <requerdanos> vegan cheese isn't cheese, but then, we have a good definition of cheese.
[16:34:36] <requerdanos> vegan cheese is however super cheeselike, which our artificial "intelligence" might resemble.
[16:37:07] <FatPhil> there's presently no reason to reject a hypothesis that a non-biological system might reach a complexity level such that it gains emergent properties that make it indistinguishable from the current biological things that we are happy to call "conscious".
[16:37:36] <raxas> 500 years ago, no one believed a piece of engraved stone could think. now every CPU is "an actual piece of engraved stone" and can perform logical deductions
[16:38:11] <FatPhil> I used almost exactly the same example elsewhere only 30 minutes ago!
[16:44:43] <raxas> https://www.youtube.com do not touch the worm, it may be a drakaina...
[16:44:45] <systemd> ^ 03XIAO YAN X QUEEN MEDUSA || BATTLE THROUGH THE HEAVENS - I LIKE ME BETTER [AMV]
[16:45:13] <raxas> https://www.youtube.com
[16:45:14] <systemd> ^ 03Queen Medusa And Yun Zhi - Battle Through The Heavens [AMV] Alone - Alan Walker
[16:51:33] <Runaway1956> Raxas - Mexicans have been eating the worms for forever
[16:55:14] -!- AzumaHazuki [AzumaHazuki!~hazuki@the.end.of.time] has joined #soylent
[17:27:17] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Alien Dreams: An Emerging Art Scene - https://sylnt.us - rendered-in-unreal-engine
[17:38:36] <FatPhil> was chatting to the g/f about pyramid woo woo, and she promised to dig out her mum's "Toth Pyramic Company" pyramid kit from her stash of collected guff - there's some high quality woowoo within!
[17:41:24] <Runaway1956> "Freinds of Schumer" sent me a survey, "what should congress concentrate on for the rest of the year"
[17:41:37] <Runaway1956> I told them to retire the Pretender in Chief, lol
[17:43:15] -!- inky [inky!~inky@95.141.qw.vq] has joined #soylent
[18:12:21] <requerdanos> I am pretty sure the pretender in chief is already, save for a brief nonsensical statement here and there, already retired to Florida
[18:14:16] <FatPhil> https://cdn.jwz.org
[18:14:38] <FatPhil> = https://www.reuters.com
[18:20:06] <FatPhil> https://www.otago.ac.nz
[18:20:10] <systemd> ^ 0328 June 2021, Researchers develop world-first weight loss device
[18:39:12] <Runaway1956> fc-list
[18:40:03] <Runaway1956> I've got pages and pages of fonts installed
[18:46:45] <FatPhil> so, you do a lot of baptisms?
[18:58:30] <Runaway1956> This one gave me creepy-crawlies
[18:58:34] <Runaway1956> https://nypost.com
[18:58:35] <systemd> ^ 03Woman wakes up to mouse eating her eyeball amid Aussie rodent plague
[18:59:14] <Runaway1956> Is the mouse plague of "biblical proportions"?
[19:05:39] <FatPhil> Do you mean "completely made up"?
[19:12:47] <inz> FatPhil++
[19:12:47] <Bender> karma - fatphil: 131
[19:25:51] <FatPhil> inz: looks like we may just be able to blag our way accross the border in the coming weeks. probably no time to hit any towns apart from Hel though.
[20:00:00] <FatPhil> Damn, someone fucked up. 0 days without a corona death.
[20:00:07] <FatPhil> we got to 12
[20:06:36] <Runaway1956> We had a shark attack in Northern California recently - that added to the coronaviruse deaths
[20:10:35] <Runaway1956> "bloke couldn't find his way home after dark"
[20:10:51] <Runaway1956> Aussies have their own way of stating things, lol
[20:27:43] <Runaway1956> And - the narrative takes on a life of it's own
[20:27:47] <Runaway1956> https://www.washingtontimes.com
[20:27:49] <systemd> ^ 03Immigration activists call Texas border security efforts an ‘ins
[20:35:39] <Bytram> FatPhil: ping!
[20:37:15] <Bytram> I've got a site meta story scheduled to go out in < 1/2 hour; I'd very much appreciate it if you could give in a lookover for me.
[20:57:22] <FatPhil> you catch me between things
[20:57:51] <FatPhil> happy birthday?
[20:59:12] <FatPhil> I've just noticed that the vt220 theme doesn't honour all markup
[20:59:33] <FatPhil> I was about to add some, then I noticed you already had it, it just wasn't showing in my theme.
[21:00:29] <FatPhil> what are the colons doing in things like @Deucalion: ?
[21:00:55] <FatPhil> we don't do any nick detection and flagging, so at the moment they just uglify things, I think
[21:05:12] <FatPhil> just a few tiny cosmetic things tweaked, otherwise all good.
[21:05:17] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Happy Birthday SoylentNews PBC! Server Storage Upgrade, Folding, *and* Start of New Funding Period - https://sylnt.us - UPDATE++
[21:15:30] <Bytram> FatPhil: FYI, @FatPhil: is converted, upon display on the site, to a link. IIRC, it would be to: https://soylentnews.org (or something similar)
[21:15:33] <systemd> ^ 03FatPhil - SoylentNews User
[21:16:25] * Bytram goes in to replace / check those links.
[21:16:47] <Bytram> FatPhil: thank you!
[21:20:13] <Bytram> update completed
[21:21:17] <FatPhil> hmmm, they're not converted for me.
[21:21:33] <chromas> maybe it only works in comments
[21:21:35] <FatPhil> hmmm2, they are, but they're styled to not be underlined
[21:21:37] <Bytram> give it a coule minutes to clear the cache
[21:22:01] <chromas> maybe it's that missing v220 markup you were talking about
[21:22:05] <FatPhil> mouse-over does show it's a link, but there are no other clues (could be just the vt220 theme)
[21:23:04] <Bytram> on OMGPwnies theme, they are also presented in @Bold:
[21:24:24] <Bytram> and viewing in a FireFox private browser window with the default theme, I see they are bold there, too.
[21:24:57] <chromas> we should've created a new theme, OMG-Ronies
[21:25:26] <Bytram> chromas: s/R/MacR/
[21:25:26] <SedBot> <Bytram> <chromas> we should've created a new theme, OMG-MacRonies
[21:25:48] <Bytram> chromas: s/R/Macar/
[21:25:48] <SedBot> <Bytram> <chromas> we should've created a new theme, OMG-Macaronies
[21:25:49] <chromas> FatPhil: does the font you're browser uses for monospace support boldface at all?
[21:26:09] <Bytram> chromas++ great question
[21:26:09] <Bender> karma - chromas: 370
[21:27:13] <chromas> if not, then you'll have a hard time telling where the boldface lies
[21:29:49] <Bytram> chromas: s/ol/al/
[21:29:49] <SedBot> <Bytram> <chromas> if not, then you'll have a hard time telling where the baldface lies
[21:30:18] <chromas> I don't geddit
[21:31:19] * chromas prefers kate...or at least geany
[21:32:50] <FatPhil> Ah, it might indeed be a browser setting.
[21:33:42] <FatPhil> Because half of the internet seems to use font-weight: 300 nowadays, I blocked that wankery by overriding it with 500 !important.
[21:34:06] <FatPhil> However, in the style debugger, when I disable my override, it doesn't embolden itself.
[21:35:52] <chromas> What if you also explicitly set font-weight for bold items?
[21:36:00] <FatPhil> font-weight: bold seems to still work on news.bbc.co.uk, which was the first other site I looked at.
[21:36:58] <FatPhil> which I'd say is a bug, as my override should override, goddammit
[21:37:16] <FatPhil> we're fighting firefox here, there's no way we can with with sense and logic.
[21:37:24] <FatPhil> s/with/win/
[21:37:24] <SedBot> <FatPhil> we're fighting firefox here, there's no way we can win with sense and logic.
[21:37:45] <chromas> sometimes you have to fight firefox with firefox
[21:38:31] <FatPhil> jeebus, some busker thinks that 00:30 is a good time to start wailing like a tortured llama.
[21:38:46] <chromas> go outside and give him a negative tip
[21:39:00] <FatPhil> sounds I'll give him the tip of my pointy shoes!
[21:40:49] <FatPhil> gawd, yup, I thought he sounded close, he's in one of the bars in the building. so probably not even a busker.
[21:41:24] <FatPhil> might be just sitting on the steps leading to one of the bars, I guess, I can't quite see down the the entrances.
[21:42:21] <FatPhil> so, should I blast some Yes or ELP out of the window?
[21:42:30] <chromas> oh whoops! watch out for this boiling cauldron rolling down the stairs! how'd that even get here?
[21:43:18] <chromas> ¿Por qué no los dos?
[21:43:25] <FatPhil> I'm yet to invest in the pisscopter...
[21:47:10] <Bytram> FatPhil: maybe a simple waterballoon would suffice?
[21:47:16] <chromas> that gives me an idea. go down and offer him a beer...but a bud light
[21:47:52] <chromas> 🎵99 pissballons🎵
[21:48:26] <Bytram> lobbed in a proper high arc, will come from "on high" and give plenty of time while in midair to make yourself scarce?
[21:48:58] <Bytram> i.e. duck back into your apartment
[21:49:21] <Bytram> break time
[21:53:19] -!- inky has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
[22:00:11] * Runaway1956 searches for humane society phone # to report FatPhil torturing a llama
[22:08:54] <FatPhil> Bytram: however, I want the 30kmph footage of the bombing run!
[22:13:50] -!- inky [inky!~inky@xvqv-1.zerolo.gs] has joined #soylent
[22:17:51] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Citing a Serious Flight Test Incident and Lack of Design Maturity, FAA Slows Boeing 777X Certificate - https://sylnt.us - they-have-one-job
[22:51:13] <AzumaHazuki> good noms almost ready :) chicken and barley stew with lots of veg and mushrooms. i've never made this but it smells really good. will be done in ~5m
[22:52:38] <requerdanos> We tried a new mexican restaurant which I must say was delicious; everything tasted fresh.
[22:56:55] <bacterium> i been using matrix lately, after the whole freenode fallout some chans i follow switched (like xonotic), and wow, it's like what google wave should have fucking been, but better, and it's working
[22:58:21] <bacterium> i don't have a phone, so i typically feel pretty insulated from family/friends in this way, but now i been telling everyone to just fucking get a matrix client, and i feel like i am doing them a favor, cuz there's a good chace it's gonna get bigger
[22:59:36] <requerdanos> you are saying xonotic switched from irc altogether over to matrix?
[22:59:55] <bacterium> i mean getting a matrix.org username right now is probably worth it, sorry to sound like an infomercial, but hey, it's FREE!
[23:01:16] <bacterium> requerdanos: actually, their quakenet general purpose discussion chan is NOT deprecated, but they DO now have, based on internal vote, the official dev chan & general chan on matrix.org
[23:01:52] <bacterium> the irc dev chan is bridged to matrix, but the quakenet one is not, go figure