#Soylent | Logs for 2014-04-23

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[00:03:49] <juggs> Could be I suppose :D. Although I think it's more commonly attributed to the King James Bible, Proverbs something or other. Probably meant to inspire humility / modesty rather than gadding about like king smug of all smuggness on the centenary of smugshire.
[00:07:34] <juggs> Ignore my KJ ref above, looks the same in the earlier Geneva bible too.
[00:09:21] <chromas> What it means is a pack of lions will come and then we'll know it's time for autumn
[00:09:49] <chromas> In between, we'll get ripped on spirits and go looting
[00:11:08] <juggs> Sounds like every dominant civilisation throughout time really.
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[00:19:52] * juggs needs more spinning rust
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[00:30:27] <Landon> juggs: I'll trade you for magic electron technology
[00:30:41] <Landon> need to upgrade my wife's macbook pro, it's unreasonably slow :\
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[00:35:43] <crutchy> ~part
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[00:49:51] <chromas> So little talking. I guess I should fill up the channels with hosts and mycleanpc
[00:49:55] <chromas> oh and golden girls
[00:50:19] <chromas> Something about hot grits
[00:50:36] <chromas> and petrified wood in my pants
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[00:55:26] <Blackmoore> Picar_facepalm.jpg
[00:55:27] <chromas> I guess New Jersey doesn't like wireless Internets
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[01:10:25] <deadbeef> [SoylentNews] - Netgear Hides Router Backdoor Instead of Fixing It - http://sylnt.us - best-fix-ever
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[01:22:37] <juggs> Landon - I try and stay away from other's PC / device upgrades. Getting involved seems to result in being on the hook for support FOREVER. That said my parents (late 70s) are badgering me to assist upgrade their wheezing XP driven box. They have seen and loathe Win8x yet I know they have a whole bunch of MS Works type shitey docs that will no doubt ~need~ to come across. Needless to say I am putting it off.
[01:26:16] <juggs> I think Mint w. MATE should suit their XP style DE needs and LibreOffice seems to do a better job of understanding older MS doc formats than MS's own newer s/ware. But that would most definitely put me on the hook for support.
[01:27:43] <chromas> Can you set it up to run Mint within a VM so when there's problems, you can just load snapshot?
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[01:35:15] <pbnjoe> ok, so that was more than 20min
[01:36:22] <juggs> that's a good thought chromas. They are intending to purchase a new PC so VM ability should be baked in at processor level. I'm already out of date on VM stuff (have a few Virtualbox knocking around) - any suggestions for on metal hypervisors?
[01:39:16] <chromas> I haven't done much more than Virtualbox. I tried using Xen or whatever comes with suse once but couldn't get it to work
[01:39:33] <chromas> I think the issue was proprietary graphics driver
[01:40:31] <chromas> I don't game a lot but all the ones I've tried run in Wine just fine, including Starcraft 2 and the ever disappointing Diablo 3
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[01:51:46] <juggs> VirtualBox is really quite slick IME. I've got an ancient Win2000 install that I keep around purely to drive a scanner that the manufacturer saw fit to not produce later drivers, and an XP VBox that only get used for OBDC diagnostics for my car.
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[01:58:16] <arti> juggs, very slick! i've used some usb devices that way :D
[01:58:22] <juggs> I need to have a nose around the on metal hypervisor scene. KVM was the go too last I looked into it, no doubt things have changed since. I'd quite like the ability to SSH into the hypervisor regardless of how effed up my dad's pr0n surfing has stuffed up the VM itself.
[01:58:23] <arti> works nicely in a pinch
[02:01:32] <chromas> Hm, I can never get virtual Win to see my USB devices. They should up in vbox but are disabled
[02:01:41] <juggs> It's the only way my scanner works. Latest drivers are W2K. I'm not consigning a perfectly functional scanner to landfill because ~derp~ software, nor am I installing W2K natively. VBox fills a very useful little niche there for me.
[02:02:02] * arti would like to explore writing drivers some day
[02:03:57] <juggs> chromas, Vbox GUI has checkboxes for USB device passthrough - I'm sure the CLI has the same somewhere in the magic incantations :D
[02:06:10] <chromas> It's checked. I looked into it a bit once but then I got bored and gave up
[02:06:35] <juggs> arti, this scanner is akin to one of those WinModems - half the what would otherwise be onboard firmware is in the driver software.
[02:07:13] <juggs> chromas, got Guest Additions installed on host and VM?
[02:07:15] <arti> that's some fine coding there lou
[02:08:06] * juggs shrugs I didn't code it and if I did I wouldn't code it like that then promptly get fired.
[02:09:19] <chromas> Yep. There always seems to be another update too. Right now, the scanner/printer is on a Windows box and always becomes default printer.
[02:09:55] <SirFinkus> fuck printers
[02:10:00] <chromas> Amusingly, stupid/proprietary printer software is the reason RMS cites for starting his holy crusade
[02:10:13] <SirFinkus> I believe it
[02:10:15] <arti> that's some fury alright
[02:10:30] <SirFinkus> we've had printers for decades, but I still haven't encountered a good one
[02:10:42] * arti would switch shops then
[02:10:46] <arti> ;)
[02:10:58] <SpallsHurgenson> no love for the HP Laserjet 4 (or was it 5?)
[02:10:58] * arti does print services for clients
[02:11:09] <SpallsHurgenson> that thing was a brick and worked with practically everything.
[02:11:19] <SirFinkus> dot matrix printers were fun
[02:11:35] <chromas> They always seem to do their own thing. My dad had an Epson inkjet in the late 90s that took over 30 seconds to boot up, with lots of whizzing and clucking
[02:11:40] <stderr> arti: Switching shop doesn't help if he always buys the same model... I suggest switching model.
[02:11:50] <chromas> I had a Lexmark that came on in one second
[02:11:52] <arti> stderr: i was referring to a print shop.
[02:11:59] <arti> stderr: that has people doing the tasks
[02:12:06] <stderr> Oh...
[02:12:14] <SpallsHurgenson> noisy, hot, finicky, easy to break down... what's not to love about dot matrix?
[02:12:35] <arti> my favorite part is folding the edges and making little snakes
[02:12:59] <SirFinkus> but the edges were almost impossible to remove without tearing them or the main paper
[02:13:09] <arti> you fold them first
[02:13:20] <SirFinkus> even then
[02:13:26] <SirFinkus> maybe I was just retarded
[02:13:32] <arti> you weren't a jedi :P
[02:13:53] <SirFinkus> I also could never tear a page out of a notebook along the perforations
[02:14:08] <arti> lol "whelp i've got 67.9% of a page"
[02:14:33] <SirFinkus> I remember the day when I learned that laser printers don't use a laser to burn the letters on the page
[02:14:36] <SirFinkus> that was a sad day
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[02:16:20] <SpallsHurgenson> SirFinkus: you lie! My laser printers have an army of tiny little gnomes with laser-pistols
[02:16:27] * SirFinkus looks up youtube videos of laser engravers to comfort himself
[02:18:03] <SirFinkus> yeah, I'm going to need one of these things
[02:18:21] <arti> engrave your cat
[02:18:52] <arti> "property of SirFinkus Inc. All Rights Reserved. By viewing this cat you are bound to these terms..."
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[02:19:12] <SirFinkus> cats do love lasers
[02:19:48] <SirFinkus> I don't have one, but if I did, I'd attach a laser pointer to its collar
[02:20:03] <arti> and its gone
[02:20:20] <stderr> SirFinkus: Only one?
[02:20:26] <juggs> As far as printers go I must recommend the Samsung 2525 (W) - nice unfussy b/w laser that understands both PCL5E and PS. Has Ethernet, USB and Wireless. Web interface is uncluttered. Supports LPR,LPD,IPP etc. not sure it supports Novell Netware print queues though
[02:21:56] <SirFinkus> hmm, just had a concept for a cat toy
[02:22:12] <juggs> is it a hammer?
[02:22:28] <SirFinkus> a clear rubber ball, shaped so that it bounced irregularly
[02:22:49] <SirFinkus> encased in the ball, 4 laser pointers pointing outwards
[02:23:13] <SpallsHurgenson> oooh, for four times the chance of blinding kitteh! Is good!
[02:23:28] <SirFinkus> maybe put a motor in it so it moves by itself
[02:23:38] <arti> and attach strings to it
[02:23:54] <SirFinkus> naw, strings would just be a distraction
[02:23:57] <arti> also, maybe place it inside of a giant box. they love jumping into those
[02:24:08] <juggs> put it on an elasticated string designed to be suspended from the ceiling and you'll have the little shit burying monsters batting away at it for months.
[02:24:22] <SirFinkus> juggs has the right idea
[02:24:32] <SirFinkus> except attach it to a ceiling fan
[02:24:49] * SpallsHurgenson sticks with that tissue-paper wrapping paper stuff... kittehs love the way it rustles and it's really, really cheap :)
[02:24:53] <stderr> A high-speed ceiling fan... :-)
[02:25:29] <stderr> Extra points, if you can knock out someone.
[02:28:51] <juggs> with any luck they will bat away at it for so long they fail to register their hunger and evaporate. Don't get me wrong, I find cats charming, but when a gadzillion neighbours all decide to get cats having a vege plot may as well be called maintaining a cat poo bin.
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[02:38:41] * juggs senses he crossed an undemarcated line
[02:39:00] <stderr> juggs: http://landscaping.about.com
[02:41:34] <deadbeef> [SoylentNews] - Artificial Intelligence Wouldn't Turn Evil - http://sylnt.us - a-robot-told-me-so-it-must-be-true
[02:45:56] <juggs> low level mains powered electric fencing seems to work. Has the added benefit of discouraging low-lifes who would otherwise be off and away to the scrap yard with ones hard earned copper wire :D
[02:47:59] <chromas> I need to steel your copper wire so I can pay to replace the copper piping somebody stole
[02:48:23] <chromas> steal
[02:53:00] <juggs> Go ahead, don't blame me if the jolt knock you out. Anyway - use PEX not copper pipes for plumbing. What's the plumbing trade to do if structural pipes don't degrade to useless within a decade? Now where can I find a decent buggy whip manufacturer?
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[02:57:43] <stderr> Any unicode experts in the house? Or the channel?
[02:58:34] <stderr> When did unicode go from being a _character_ set into a "let's dump anything we can think of into the set and still pretend it's characters"?
[02:59:21] <SpallsHurgenson> August 3, 2004, 8:37:41.00094 AM UTC
[02:59:32] <stderr> While you think about that, I'll prepare a couple of U+1F355's...
[03:00:00] <stderr> SpallsHurgenson: Ok... Thanks.
[03:01:48] <arti> sounds sneaky
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[03:02:18] <stderr> arti: It might be... Or it might just be http://www.fileformat.info
[03:02:50] * arti shares cupcakes with stderr
[03:03:06] <stderr> You want http://www.fileformat.info with that?
[03:03:20] <arti> i hope its fur pie
[03:03:43] <arti> unicode. one code to rule them all
[03:03:53] <arti> that's pretty cool
[03:05:07] <juggs> ffs isn't it about time we developed an all encompassing charset. I'm sure xkcd has some witty cominc about standards somewhere :D
[03:06:00] <arti> maybe we can all it the reich font?
[03:06:13] <SpallsHurgenson> https://xkcd.com
[03:06:29] <arti> is that the competing standards?
[03:06:56] <SpallsHurgenson> ayuh, seems t' be.
[03:07:42] <arti> noice
[03:10:07] * juggs must evaporate once again. Hopefully no-one will think to just add water for a millenia or so, maybe, just maybe shit will have changed by then.
[03:10:21] * arti salutes
[03:10:30] <arti> we will shine the signal next time you're needed to rtfm for us
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[03:22:03] <SirFinkus> gee, router documentation on an external webpage
[03:22:09] <SirFinkus> fucking BRILLIANT
[03:23:49] <chromas> "Is your Internet down? Need help? Just go to our web site..."
[03:24:12] <SirFinkus> pretty much
[03:24:37] <SirFinkus> I don't think it came with a dead tree manual either
[03:24:57] <SirFinkus> "click here to download a pdf copy!"
[03:25:09] <chromas> It's especially silly because it has a built-in web server
[03:25:46] <chromas> "But we want to save 50¢ on storage space"
[03:25:54] <SirFinkus> guess they couldn't manage to fit the extra 3MB of flash
[03:26:45] <SirFinkus> even less than that, a simple text file with a map of the web interface with simple explanations of all the options would have sufficed
[03:26:53] <SirFinkus> preferable even
[03:27:54] <SirFinkus> anyway, all my lan devices have ipv6 addresses now
[03:27:56] <SirFinkus> in theory
[03:28:00] <chromas> nice
[03:29:14] <SirFinkus> I went to the help page the firmware was linking to, it's engrish
[03:29:47] <stderr> SirFinkus: "Real" IPv6 addresses and not just fe80::-addresses?
[03:30:33] <SirFinkus> guess they're fake then, I know very little about ipv6 tbh
[03:30:38] <SirFinkus> which is why I'm playing around with it
[03:30:55] <stderr> fe80:: are link local.
[03:32:26] <SirFinkus> huh, my settings have reverted
[03:32:37] <SirFinkus> I'll play with it tomorrow
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[04:20:49] <deadbeef> [SoylentNews] - Oklahoma to Charge Customers Using Solar Panels - http://sylnt.us - sometimes-I-despair
[04:40:58] <kobach> 'MURICA
[04:41:00] <kobach> FUCK YEA
[05:29:39] <SpallsHurgenson> whoa, still here!
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[05:51:57] <deadbeef> [SoylentNews] - Capturing Great Astronomy Shots is Easy - http://sylnt.us - getting-lost-in-space
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[06:20:26] <SoyCow5084> Yar matties. Be the slashdot down?
[06:22:15] <mattie_p> this mattie says yes
[06:22:20] <mattie_p> not sure about the other ones
[06:22:35] <mattie_p> http://www.isitdownrightnow.com
[06:22:46] <SoyCow5084> Yeah, I noticed
[06:23:13] <SoyCow5084> I submitted a story to soylent about it and was curious if anyone had more news aside from "Yup, it's really slow to respond or doesn't"
[06:24:03] <SoyCow5084> (I'm also guessing all the /. people will wander over to soylent to see what's up as well...as I did;))
[06:24:27] <mattie_p> I haven't checked /. in so long I didn't even notice
[06:25:19] <SoyCow5084> I like the retro format and I'll probably start checking more often. I appreciate what you guys have done.
[06:25:27] <SoyCow5084> (Fuck beta)
[06:25:33] <mattie_p> thank you
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[06:25:43] <mattie_p> we like our little corner of the net right now
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[06:27:45] <mattie_p> do keep coming back, we do it for you and those like you
[06:32:04] <SoyCow5084> will do! ttfn
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[07:00:57] <arti> MrBluze, did you scope out ramnode yet?
[07:01:11] <arti> or better yet, did you pull the trigger on that yet
[07:18:59] <MrBluze> hi
[07:19:02] <MrBluze> i had a look, arti
[07:19:06] <MrBluze> havent bought into it yet
[07:19:14] <arti> RN25OFF 25% off :D
[07:19:24] <MrBluze> ohh ;)
[07:19:29] <MrBluze> for the first month .. or for a year?
[07:19:54] <MrBluze> i havent built anythign to host on it yet .. i was gonna wait till i had some code together and then buy some server space
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[07:20:46] <arti> probably just the first month, i'm going to scope them out
[07:20:52] * arti is distracted with fract osc
[07:21:36] <MrBluze> fract osc?
[07:22:10] <deadbeef> [SoylentNews] - Publishing Stings Find Shoddy Peer Review - http://sylnt.us - who-can-you-trust-now
[07:25:27] <MrBluze> ah a game
[07:25:56] <MrBluze> i never buy specials, i just wait till im ready and buy whatever
[07:26:32] <MrBluze> somewhere once i read a paper on that .. u actually spend less if u dont make decisions in timing of purchases on price
[07:26:44] <MrBluze> only cause the urge to buy is less and overall spending is less
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[08:00:31] <MrBluze> saved by the bell
[08:00:32] <MrBluze> cheers all
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[08:03:23] <chromas> Who knew that Slater would grow up to be such a dork?
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[09:17:58] * arti karate chops near crutchy
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[09:19:48] * crutchy karate chops his forehead with a respectful gesture
[09:20:21] <arti> coffee still not working?
[09:30:38] * crutchy misses his forehead and smacks himself in the eye
[09:30:43] <deadbeef> [SoylentNews] - FAA Begins Testing Drones - http://sylnt.us - drone-wars-coming-soon
[09:35:42] <NCommander> I fucking hate openldap
[09:35:46] * NCommander is about to knife it
[09:35:58] <arti> that'll teach it
[09:36:15] * crutchy fuckin' 'ates pikies
[09:36:56] <arti> periwinkle blue
[09:37:00] <crutchy> but i do like dags
[09:37:03] <arti> dags
[09:37:15] <arti> d'y'like dags
[09:37:35] <crutchy> i like caravans more
[09:37:43] <arti> excellent movie
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[11:13:21] <prospectacle> hi people
[11:13:25] <prospectacle> and robots
[11:13:59] <xlefay> hi :D
[11:14:34] <prospectacle> how's tricks xlefay?
[11:15:20] <xlefay> Fairly OK, hadn't had a blood nose all day (although fairly sure I shouldn't be tempting fate now..); how about you?
[11:16:03] <xlefay> looking for a good hardstyle mis is hard :O
[11:17:00] <prospectacle> good thanks. i got my boss to sign a thing saying the company won't try to claim my hobby software project, so I'm happy about that.
[11:18:05] <xlefay> aweomse :D what did you make?
[11:19:03] <prospectacle> it's just a to-do list program. designed to be slightly better than pen and paper (and faster to use), I'll put a journal entry on the site soon and release it into the wild.
[11:20:43] <xlefay> Awesome :D
[11:20:59] <xlefay> I'm guessing you're using a DB as backend?
[11:21:23] <Brylarke> Cauterisation
[11:21:28] <Brylarke> It's the future
[11:21:36] <prospectacle> yeah, just sqlite
[11:21:50] <xlefay> cool :D
[11:21:53] <prospectacle> I'm planning to move to a proper db server a couple of version in the future, but for now sqlite does what's required
[11:22:01] <prospectacle> What's cauterisation?
[11:22:20] <Brylarke> Burning the inside of your nose so it doesn't bleed ever again
[11:22:43] <prospectacle> ah, nice
[11:23:13] <prospectacle> I hope it works. Sounds like a big deal
[11:23:37] <xlefay> Gotta go to the hospital sometime next week.. so gotta wait what the doc has to say then
[11:23:56] <Brylarke> It's not really, had it done myself, they just shove a stick up your nose that burns for a bit
[11:24:10] <xlefay> Sounds painful
[11:24:13] <prospectacle> Cool
[11:24:31] * xlefay wishes the vimperator-like plugin for Chromium was more like the one for Firefox..
[11:24:47] <Brylarke> It just makes yu feel like sneezing
[11:24:54] <Brylarke> Which is bad
[11:24:55] <prospectacle> Yeah. Good story, though. More appropriate than most medical stories to bring up at the pub or whatever
[11:24:59] <xlefay> ah oke
[11:26:44] <Brylarke> Also, how large is this todo list program going to get?
[11:26:50] <prospectacle> Is vimperator good? Is it based on VI or is that just a coincidence/
[11:26:51] <prospectacle> ?
[11:26:57] <Brylarke> A proper db seems... excessive
[11:27:29] <prospectacle> Brylarke, it keeps the last 1000 copies of your list, which ends up to be about 2mb (it gzips the records)
[11:28:07] <prospectacle> Brylarke, it is excessive for now. In the future I plan to make professional and enterprise versions with multi-user tasks, attachments, deadlines, message-boards per task, etc.
[11:28:16] <xlefay> prospectacle, from vimperator's website: "Vimperator is a Firefox browser extension with strong inspiration from the Vim text editor, with a mind towards faster and more efficient browsing. It has similar key bindings and you could call it a modal web browser, as key bindings differ according to which mode you are in. "
[11:28:17] <prospectacle> at which point I think a proper db would be worthwhile
[11:28:42] <Brylarke> Ah
[11:28:49] <xlefay> prospectacle, pretty much an Asana-like system?
[11:29:18] <prospectacle> xlefay, sounds like it would be useful once you got the hang of it. i'm a big fan of shortcuts in theory. In practice I like a shallow learning curve where i can use shortcuts or not use them, depending on how I feel/what I remember at the time.
[11:30:12] <prospectacle> xlefay, kind of, eventually. Except it will be organised a bit differently.
[11:30:13] <deadbeef> [SoylentNews] - Microsoft OneDrive Modifies User Files - http://sylnt.us - checksum-did-not-match
[11:30:28] <xlefay> prospectacle, it's truly amazing. It's also pretty nice when you only use the HUD in Unity itself, I'm barely using my mouse at all (inside and outside of the browser) ;-)
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[11:31:14] <xlefay> I used to use Asana with clients, it was an exceptionally easy to use system to communicate bugs, stuff to do, keep them up to date, etc. I'd love to see how your project turns out
[11:31:54] <prospectacle> xlefay, here is a preview of the "personal" version, http://webinterfacetricks.com but there's a bit of tidying up and improvements before I release it. It will be better than shown here.
[11:32:26] <prospectacle> like vimperator, the idea is to make it more efficient through short-cuts
[11:32:36] <prospectacle> so you don't have to be clicking menus all the time for basic operations
[11:32:44] <xlefay> It looks pretty awesome already :))
[11:33:00] <prospectacle> xlefay, thanks. Yeah we use asana at work, which is good for sharing tasks/deadlines, etc.
[11:33:34] <prospectacle> I'm coming at it from the other end. Replacing the pen-and-paper to do list that many people probably make already, and gradually building more features once that part works well.
[11:33:41] <xlefay> I think the Asana interface is pretty damn perfect, it does everything you need it to do, combine that with the shortkeys and such.. it's pretty darn efficient
[11:33:55] <prospectacle> xlefay, does it do sub-tasks?
[11:34:02] <prospectacle> I use it at work but I haven't explored it in depth
[11:34:02] <xlefay> (especially replying via e-mail is one of the things I particularly liked) - yeah, asana does sub tasks also
[11:34:18] <prospectacle> That's good.
[11:34:21] <xlefay> I would advise you to explore it a bit, there are a lot of good idea's in there
[11:34:52] <prospectacle> ok i will do that, thanks
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[11:35:28] <xlefay> and what impressed me the most, is that unlikely many others - they actually put the user first, I didn't even have a single client having a 'WTF?' moment. They created an account - and within minutes, they were adding tasks, etc
[11:36:18] <prospectacle> yeah there's a lot to be said for being intuitive and easy to get started
[11:36:39] <xlefay> yeah, include the "tags" and stuff, and it's really good
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[11:38:00] <xlefay> prospectacle, I'm extremely interested in seeing your work progress, do you have it on github or so? So I can star it and keep track?
[11:38:39] <prospectacle> no I'm gonna put a source download on my website.
[11:38:44] <xlefay> ah oke
[11:39:39] <prospectacle> I don't know how many people will find it useful, but i think it will make certain kinds of things faster and easier than they otherwise would be. Adding/re-ordering, etc of tasks/subtasks etc, and keeping a clear timeframe (without specific deadlines)
[11:41:03] <xlefay> If you're thinking of making it even in the direction of Asana, a lot of people will enjoy the (libre/open?) alternative and the ability to self-host
[11:42:48] <prospectacle> just looking at asana now. I see you can add sub-tasks fairly easily
[11:43:04] <xlefay> yeah
[11:44:56] <prospectacle> Asana doesn't appear to allow multiple-levels of subtasks. but perhaps I just haven't found it yet
[11:45:17] <xlefay> click on a subtask, then you can add multiple levels iirc
[11:46:35] <prospectacle> oh yeah I see, you have to bring it up in the main task panel
[11:47:00] <xlefay> yeah
[11:47:11] <xlefay> That part's a bit clunky imo
[11:47:31] <prospectacle> Yes. My system won't do all the things asana can do, but maybe it can do a few things faster/easier
[11:47:53] <xlefay> also, in asana you can make categories, write a main task ending with a ':' and it'll be a category (although, you really don't want to use those ever and just use tags instead)
[11:48:03] <prospectacle> e.g. multi-level tasks, and the timeframe columns. (e.g. day, week, month, etc)
[11:48:33] <prospectacle> I realise the timeframe columns are a bit unorthodox, but I realised it's how I think about things. I generally don't think about things as having a specific deadline (with some exceptions, of course)
[11:48:38] <prospectacle> but I don't know how other people think
[11:48:54] <xlefay> prospectacle, well, the multi-levels are simple, in the DB, you simply do a "parent_id" field, that way you can do unlimited subtasks if you like
[11:49:27] <xlefay> as for the time frames, people do enjoy being able to set a specific date (especially, clients love that)
[11:49:31] <prospectacle> Yes, true. It's the interface that's the challenge, I've chosen a tree style but possibly there are other, better, ways
[11:50:00] <prospectacle> yes people do like dates. I plan to add them in the "professional" versions, but no the personal versions (which are first).
[11:50:24] <prospectacle> at the moment there are no parent_id as such, it's all a serialised array.
[11:50:33] <prospectacle> I realise that doesn't scale well, but good for single-person lists.
[11:50:51] <xlefay> serialized is evil :P but yeah that should be simple enough for now
[11:51:49] <prospectacle> well I figure it's no worse than, say, an xml document <task>one<task>subtask</task></task>, etc
[11:51:58] <xlefay> XML is even more evil
[11:52:02] <prospectacle> lol
[11:52:18] <xlefay> Well, you have to ask yourself, what is the purpose of serializing it? Do you want to preserve a state of whatever?
[11:52:51] <xlefay> If not, no need to use serialized, XML shouldn't even be on the table; I'd use JSON. I only ever use serialize() if I really need to preserve a state or w/e
[11:52:57] <xlefay> which is practically never
[11:52:59] <prospectacle> it's just one big array, serialised. Between saves you might re-order things, add/edit/delete things. Also I keep dated snapshots
[11:53:19] <prospectacle> yeah I just use serialize($array);
[11:53:30] <Brylarke> Ewww, xml
[11:54:22] <xlefay> Brylarke, indeed
[11:54:58] <xlefay> prospectacle, yeah should be sufficed */me still suggest JSON*
[11:55:32] <Brylarke> In terms of verbosity it's the java of data formats
[11:55:50] <xlefay> I'm not sure if it was a bug but once upon a time, serialize gave me such grieve that I just swore it off lol
[11:55:50] <prospectacle> xlefay, well json would require extra processing. Since it's already in a php array when the form is processed, I figure the best way to save it is just serialise and zip
[11:56:05] <prospectacle> I haven't had any trouble with it.
[11:56:07] <xlefay> prospectacle, not really? json_encode(); json_decode(.., true); that's it?
[11:56:31] <xlefay> granted, serialize is excellent for this case though
[11:56:35] <prospectacle> xelfay, yes you're right, it's one function either way. I never considered json
[11:56:36] <xlefay> _if_ it works for you, stick with it
[11:57:19] <prospectacle> I had interesting times saving gzipped data in sqlite text field. I figured out how to do it (properly) eventually, but decided I would just base64 encode it instead, then you can copy/paste, whatever
[11:57:36] <prospectacle> and it doesn't add much to the size
[11:57:50] <xlefay> I see
[11:58:18] <prospectacle> anyway I should be working on it not talking about it
[11:58:21] <xlefay> I don't use SQLite much myself, I think even though it's useful, it's an oddball
[11:58:25] <prospectacle> What have you been up to lately?
[11:58:44] <prospectacle> sqlite is good for a certain purpose: fast, local, structured data storage without a separate server.
[11:59:12] <prospectacle> don't use it for systems with lots of users, or parallel writes
[11:59:54] <xlefay> Oh you, know, a ton of things really
[11:59:55] <prospectacle> as they say themselves (perhaps to paraphrase), it's not a substitute for postres it's a substitute for fopen()
[12:00:08] <Brylarke> Exactly
[12:00:57] <xlefay> yea
[12:01:02] <crutchy> hi prospectacle Brylarke and xlefay :-D
[12:01:08] <xlefay> crutchy, =D
[12:01:11] <Brylarke> Hey
[12:01:50] <prospectacle> hey crutchy, how's it going
[12:01:56] <xlefay> prospectacle, I'm actually working on a nifty IRC bot, that'll do a ton of shit, including a todo functionality; but the cool thing is, there'll also be a web-ui for everyone that wants to manage the stuff they use
[12:02:22] <crutchy> it's the real skynet
[12:02:26] <crutchy> kill it!
[12:02:26] <xlefay> That's also why I'm rather interested in your app, because perhaps, one day, we could use it as the web layer, but that'd be long-term plans I suppose
[12:02:31] <crutchy> before it takes over
[12:02:44] <xlefay> (if you like, the general idea ;-))
[12:03:54] <xlefay> crutchy, haha :P
[12:03:55] <prospectacle> xlefay, sounds very interesting
[12:04:02] <prospectacle> Is it for this site specifically, or just for fun?
[12:04:42] <xlefay> prospectacle, the cool thing is, the IRC services (nickserv) and such, have an XML(ugh)-RPC api, so essentially, it'll use a SSL to connect to the api when someone signs in via the web. the bot itself, will on IRC, just check if someone's signed in
[12:05:00] <xlefay> (the XML-RPC api isn't publicly available, just before anyone asks, so sorry, no you can't do funny stuff with it)
[12:05:15] <xlefay> prospectacle, both I suppose
[12:05:40] <prospectacle> That's cool. What are some of the things you want it to do?
[12:06:17] <xlefay> Well, one of the idea's I'm toying with, is making the bot execute scripts instead of having it all in it's core, which would allow anyone to contribute any script they want in whatever language
[12:06:29] <xlefay> I'm just a bit afraid regarding performance and keeping things neat & tidy
[12:07:29] <xlefay> In any case, the sky's the limit (unless, of course, we make it power a space station and it'll be real skynet like..)
[12:08:36] <prospectacle> Yeah a scriptable interface would be a good idea. Something high level. You wouldn't have to accept everyone's scripts, but people would probably submit them and feel good if they made the cut.
[12:09:13] MrBluze|afk is now known as MrBluze
[12:09:47] <xlefay> prospectacle, so essentially, say, you want it to do something, you'd write a script in whatever language (the limit in languages is only the one I'll be setting then, for instance, brainfuk scripts aren't going to be accepted); say, you want it to do maths, you'd write a script in PHP for instance, and an install script (the install script will determine the trigger, and tell "Sublight" to write stuff to the DB if needed); and everytime the t
[12:09:47] <xlefay> rigger is executed, your script will be called
[12:11:45] <xlefay> So, say the trigger is '*math'; someone would write: *math 1+1 and the bot would send "1+1" to your script.. but like I said, I'm just afraid of the possible performance penalty :(
[12:12:11] <prospectacle> good plan. With enough security in place, people could write scripts for themselves to use, without affecting anyone else. Saving them having to make the main bot core on their own.
[12:13:08] <xlefay> Well, all scripts would go through a process I've yet to define, but there'll be some strict rules. Also, Sublight, will be in charge of anti-flood, etc.. so essentially, scripts and such won't have to worry about that
[12:13:31] <prospectacle> Nice
[12:13:53] <xlefay> ugh I should get back to working on it ;-)
[12:14:08] <crutchy> sounds pretty cool xlefay
[12:14:15] <prospectacle> ok no worries, I should be working on my thing as well.
[12:14:15] <crutchy> like exec on steroids :-D
[12:14:22] <xlefay> prospectacle, haha yeah :P
[12:14:37] <xlefay> We're so excited about our ideas that we like to talk about it and forget to make them true haha
[12:14:51] <xlefay> crutchy, haha, I do hope you'll be submitting some scripts!
[12:14:55] <prospectacle> yep, which is great in small to medium doses. Keeps the old enthusiasm fires burning
[12:15:08] <xlefay> prospectacle, yeah definitely
[12:15:13] <xlefay> also!!
[12:15:19] <crutchy> you can have the funny one i made yesterday :-P
[12:15:32] <xlefay> Sublight will have a scheduler :D So, scripts can say "Call me back in 10!" etc :D
[12:15:48] <prospectacle> now that would be useful
[12:16:01] <prospectacle> you can be like, well, ten minutes till I have to check on dinner. I'd better log in to irc so I don't forget
[12:16:09] <prospectacle> nothing like an excuse to chat
[12:16:19] <xlefay> Essentially, Sublight & scripts will communicate via JSON to keep things easy, e.g. most languages support JSON, and JSON's is pretty damn flexible :P
[12:16:30] <xlefay> haha yeah :P
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[12:16:52] <prospectacle> yes json is useful and easy to read and write for humans as well
[12:17:09] <xlefay> I'm not sure if I want to allow scripts to push things to Sublight without Sublight first calling them.. still something I'm debating
[12:17:48] <xlefay> Essentially, Sublight will be the hart, it'll feed from IRC, and it'll get stuff from scripts and feed it back into IRC.. not sure if I want to allow scripts to feed stuff to Sublight without it properly being triggered via Sublight
[12:17:49] <prospectacle> is there any way of having user scripts run on the user's computer?
[12:18:06] <prospectacle> I mean user scripts that are managed and triggered by sublight
[12:18:25] <xlefay> hmm, not sure what you mean
[12:18:34] <crutchy> sockets
[12:19:07] <prospectacle> Well i assume if a user submits a script (e.g. maths) and they type in the correct trigger "Maths: 1*5+(2343)" or whatever, sublight will see this an run the script on its (your?) server?
[12:19:17] <crutchy> client connects to sublight listening socket, sublight triggers script with response?
[12:19:44] <xlefay> Well, Sublight will have a public github repo for users to submit pull reqs, if included, the scripts will end up in Sublight's repository repo
[12:19:45] <prospectacle> but I wonder if, to deal with load, you could have the users irc client somehow run the script once it's been triggered.
[12:19:54] <xlefay> crutchy, no, not for the public anyway
[12:20:11] <xlefay> prospectacle, hmm, well it's going to be multithreading, and queue whenever needed; e.g. it'll protect itself
[12:20:29] <xlefay> server load higher than predetermined value? "Kill all scripts rated priority 90" for instance
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[12:21:09] <prospectacle> I guess I'm thinking of how a web-browser works. A site can farm some work out to clients by send it as javascript. Other stuff it can do on its own server
[12:21:17] <prospectacle> Don't know if there's anyway to do this with common irc clients, though
[12:21:22] <xlefay> yeah, that's not how this is going to work
[12:21:36] <xlefay> I suppose you could use a DCC-like system but that's just not going to work
[12:22:01] <xlefay> firstly, there's no _good_ predefined way, secondly, you have no idea what scripting languages someone has, and thirdly, how can you trust the results?
[12:22:07] <prospectacle> yeah proobably not practical by the sounds of it.
[12:22:09] <xlefay> (and there are a ton of more reasons why this shouldn't be done)
[12:22:22] <crutchy> you would need a client program running beside the irc client, like how we generally run bots in a terminal window
[12:22:38] <xlefay> crutchy, yeah but the 'trust' thing is the biggest issue
[12:22:59] <crutchy> if its running on the users computer, its only going to hurt the users computer
[12:23:07] <crutchy> not going to hurt sublight
[12:23:21] <xlefay> I'm not sure how you see that happening
[12:23:35] <prospectacle> true you'd need to maintain some kind of a sandbox system, like, again, the web-browser. Probably too much work and not practical for this kind of purpose.
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[12:23:42] <xlefay> e.g. the math example, people could just open a calculator or so, so doing that via IRC isn't needed
[12:23:45] <crutchy> but i'm not sure how useful it would be... maybe for a kind of 'bot net' might be good (for task sharing or something)
[12:23:52] <prospectacle> It wasn't really a suggestion so much as a question, as I don't really understand how irc works very well.
[12:23:53] <crutchy> yeah
[12:23:54] <xlefay> but if it's being done via IRC, it'd be more useful to just echo back a reply
[12:24:25] <xlefay> crutchy, I am toying with that idea, of allowing a cluster running the commands but that's really overkill x'D
[12:24:29] <xlefay> just tinkering and tinkering x'D
[12:24:34] <crutchy> yeah
[12:24:34] <xlefay> but so much overkill :P
[12:24:43] <crutchy> i couldn't think of an app for it
[12:24:55] <crutchy> there's always boinc for that kinda stuff anyways
[12:25:05] <prospectacle> yes best to get whatever you consider "the core" to work, then you can experiment with other stuff
[12:25:11] <xlefay> prospectacle, essentially, the scripts wouldn't be that heavy, sublight will be multithreaded and all, it'll be able to do a fair amount of processing and queue others, besides that, it'll actively ignore flood attempts (per user and global)
[12:25:34] <xlefay> e.g. if 100 people send whatever command in 15 - 30 or 60 seconds, there's a good chance it's a flood attempt
[12:25:57] <crutchy> that's a good idea
[12:25:59] <xlefay> prospectacle, the core works.. although, I'm rewriting to make it somewhat more efficient
[12:26:06] <crutchy> alias flood
[12:26:10] <crutchy> hmm
[12:26:12] <crutchy> :-P
[12:26:29] <xlefay> Although, the flood will also be dependent on load
[12:27:05] <crutchy> we could do some load testing
[12:27:13] <xlefay> e.g. if >X requests per minute, Sublight will just message people directly instead of responding in a channel; if the load is higher, it'll disregard every message after _flood limit_ in that minute
[12:27:39] <xlefay> Sublight's going to be shiny!
[12:27:44] <xlefay> crutchy, yeah :P
[12:29:40] * MrBluze kicks his internet connection in the globals
[12:29:54] <prospectacle> sounds great xlefay
[12:30:51] <prospectacle> whose bot does duck duck go, is it subsentient?
[12:30:58] <xlefay> yeah
[12:31:12] <prospectacle> anyway, that's a cool feature. You could have a wiki one, a dictionary one, etc
[12:31:22] <xlefay> all stuff on the list ;-)
[12:31:25] <prospectacle> nice
[12:32:05] <xlefay> weather, etc.. think crutchy already implemented a few for his own bot
[12:32:23] <prospectacle> he did php manual I remember
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[12:32:44] <xlefay> yeah he did weather & some form of (... hackish..) define
[12:32:51] <crutchy> lol
[12:33:00] <xlefay> crutchy, knows what I'm talking about haha
[12:33:12] <crutchy> it kinda worked :-P
[12:33:32] <crutchy> and it only took me a little while
[12:33:47] <xlefay> prospectacle, I gotta sign up for a wolfram api key :o
[12:33:49] <xlefay> it'll be awesome
[12:34:03] <xlefay> essentially, the math, define, etc.. will be solved by wolfram itself
[12:34:03] <prospectacle> I wonder if news would be good/possible. e.g. it shows the last 5 headlines about X
[12:34:07] <xlefay> *wolfram stuff'
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[12:34:16] <prospectacle> xlefay , yeah that wolframe stuff looks pretty extensive
[12:34:28] <xlefay> *wolfram 5+5
[12:34:29] <xlefay> xD
[12:34:47] <prospectacle> *wolfram population of belgrave
[12:34:52] <xlefay> yeah
[12:35:00] <crutchy> i gotta update my scripts
[12:35:10] <prospectacle> how's the game going crutchy?
[12:35:13] <xlefay> Unfortunately.. wolfram isn't smart enough to use JSON and instead uses XML
[12:35:28] <crutchy> i done a fair bit of work to the bot to help the game
[12:35:35] <crutchy> i needed raw irc socket access
[12:35:41] <crutchy> for things like whois
[12:36:07] <crutchy> works ok now :-D
[12:36:33] <prospectacle> is your bot with us in the room now?
[12:36:45] <MrBluze> NCommander: ping
[12:36:53] <crutchy> yeah
[12:36:55] <crutchy> exec
[12:37:34] <crutchy> the usual moos and cowsays work
[12:37:36] <prospectacle> exec whois crutchy
[12:37:40] <NCommander> MrBluze, pong
[12:37:51] <crutchy> lol whois hasn't been scripted yet
[12:38:05] <crutchy> well it sorta has
[12:38:07] <crutchy> :-P
[12:38:12] <crutchy> not ready yet though
[12:38:16] <kobach> afk
[12:38:50] <mrcoolbp> MrBluze, I recieved your email but now *I* have to run off to work = )
[12:38:57] <MrBluze> hmm
[12:39:07] <xlefay> I gtg, lunch time!
[12:39:09] <MrBluze> thats okay
[12:39:15] <MrBluze> i will write some feedback on the staff site
[12:39:22] <MrBluze> uhm.. polite feedback :)
[12:39:26] <crutchy> cya later xlefay. enjoy :-)
[12:40:07] <mrcoolbp> MrBluze: appreciate the "polite" part, hoping to get a chance to catch up with you first though
[12:41:36] <xlefay> thx =)
[12:41:49] <prospectacle> bye xlefaY
[12:42:00] <prospectacle> OOps capslock
[12:42:03] <mrcoolbp> MrBluze: but unfortunately I have to run off
[12:44:17] <mrcoolbp> gotta run to work, see you later nerds
[12:44:22] <mrcoolbp> = )
[12:44:28] <prospectacle> later
[12:46:42] mrcoolbp is now known as mrcoolbp|AFK
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[12:53:41] <MrBluze> cheers
[12:53:49] <MrBluze> i'll write the comment anyway
[12:53:54] <MrBluze> i have nothing to lose
[12:54:01] <MrBluze> hi xlefay, crutchy, prospectacle btw
[12:54:43] <prospectacle> hi mrbluze. How's things?
[12:56:00] <MrBluze> good, mostly :)
[12:56:18] <crutchy> hi mrbluze
[12:56:24] <prospectacle> That's the way
[13:00:06] <crutchy> been smashin some code lately mrbluze?
[13:00:21] <deadbeef> [SoylentNews] - UK Public Think Snowden Revelations Good - http://sylnt.us - honesty-the-best-policy
[13:01:16] Bytram|away is now known as Bytram
[13:01:38] <crutchy> my work is going through the motions to update our public webite and apparently the son-in-law of one of our managers is going to be doing it... i asked what language he was thinking of doing it in
[13:01:48] <crutchy> the answer was... html :-D
[13:02:28] <prospectacle> lol, that is the language websites use
[13:02:42] <crutchy> yup
[13:03:15] <MrBluze> me? nah just learning python slowly
[13:03:24] <MrBluze> and doing filemaker stuff which isnt exactly code but drag-drop
[13:03:35] <MrBluze> lol crutchy
[13:03:43] <crutchy> how's the filemaker stuff going
[13:03:44] <crutchy> ?
[13:03:45] <MrBluze> html .. what a strange language to write a bestie in
[13:03:51] <MrBluze> oh the filemaker is very easy
[13:03:53] <crutchy> i reckon
[13:04:04] <crutchy> i think i may have even written a website in html
[13:04:09] <crutchy> in the 90's
[13:04:49] <crutchy> i'm guessing there's a sprinkling of it in my current projects somewhere
[13:04:55] <crutchy> :-P
[13:05:44] <prospectacle> Weird I just saw an ad for youtube
[13:05:56] <prospectacle> Do they need to advertise?
[13:06:26] <crutchy> "here at youtube... we don't only have cat videos!"
[13:06:53] <MrBluze> lol
[13:06:57] <prospectacle> "we've also got movies the studios haven't made a dcma takedown claim for yet'
[13:06:58] <MrBluze> html is so.. yesterday
[13:07:01] <crutchy> "we also have miley cirus fellating a hammer!"
[13:07:50] <MrBluze> brb
[13:07:54] <crutchy> i don't think it was a dumb answer, just a weird conversation
[13:08:12] <crutchy> no mention of scripting, or even js
[13:08:16] <crutchy> just html
[13:08:58] <crutchy> i thought about mentioning css but i bit my tongue
[13:09:54] <MrBluze> he's the son-in-law
[13:10:02] <MrBluze> that means he doesnt need talent
[13:10:05] <crutchy> i just hope that by "html" he doesn't really mean flash
[13:10:16] <crutchy> i would prefer geocities to flash
[13:10:16] <MrBluze> flashing gifs
[13:10:22] <crutchy> lol
[13:10:36] <Brylarke> I make flash stuff for a living
[13:10:48] <Brylarke> I'm also quitting in a month
[13:10:49] <MrBluze> he could write the public website in email
[13:10:59] <prospectacle> What about an activex plugin that pulls the updates from a word document
[13:11:07] * Brylarke can't take any more
[13:11:14] <crutchy> you may be able to answer a burning question... why does flash suck so much?
[13:11:25] <Brylarke> Because it was created by amateurs
[13:11:42] <prospectacle> Ohh I could take a stab at this one: There's only one vendor and so they have no competition
[13:12:02] <crutchy> but i think even silverlight doesn't suck as much as flash
[13:12:10] <crutchy> (not that i use silverlight)
[13:13:13] <Brylarke> Down with plugins!
[13:13:34] <crutchy> yeah... greasemonkey BOO!
[13:13:43] <prospectacle> Yeah. I wish they'd hurry up and agree on video formats so we can all use html5 video
[13:14:17] * crutchy wouldn't mind having a play with greasemonkey
[13:15:03] * crutchy would be willing to give plugins a go for rpc that doesn't suck balls
[13:19:27] <MrBluze> it's not exactly the fault of flash
[13:19:33] <MrBluze> the web interface is stupid
[13:19:48] <MrBluze> it's a mish mash of barely compatible technologies
[13:20:33] <MrBluze> we have what's meant to be a load-once-disconnect system (http) contorted into a semi-live ajax thing
[13:20:36] <crutchy> but oh so flavorsome
[13:21:07] <prospectacle> MrBluze, it's a good example of feature creep that's for user
[13:21:08] <prospectacle> sure
[13:21:09] <MrBluze> the whole thing should have been redone to basically turn the internet into a thin client system
[13:21:47] <MrBluze> prospectacle: yes
[13:21:53] <prospectacle> mrbluze, aye, there's the rub. How can you get momentum to "redo" it. I think if flash had been open source from the start, it might have replaced html, but it wasn't and now it will be dead in five years or so
[13:22:05] <crutchy> wasn't that the idea behnd xml?
[13:22:32] <prospectacle> not really xml is for whatever purpose you want it to be for. it's just for structured data
[13:23:25] <MrBluze> yes
[13:23:33] <MrBluze> the big problem is that http is not a live connection
[13:23:41] <MrBluze> not like ssh is
[13:23:50] <crutchy> can be, but not used
[13:23:59] <MrBluze> yeah, can be
[13:24:14] <crutchy> keep-alive
[13:24:21] <MrBluze> the net should simply be a path for the event driven interface that any other UI uses
[13:24:39] <crutchy> but browsers usually terminate when all expected content is received
[13:24:52] <crutchy> i think chunked encoding is sort of keep-alive connection
[13:24:54] <MrBluze> crutchy: and that's why it's so stuffed
[13:25:18] <MrBluze> because to overcome this we have a bunch of hacks that turn dead sites into semi-live ones
[13:25:41] <crutchy> i can make a site that will continuously stream data though
[13:25:56] <crutchy> holding the socket connection open
[13:26:09] <crutchy> its just that it's not commonly needed
[13:26:19] <crutchy> especially with rpc
[13:26:30] <crutchy> or xhr or whatever the latest is
[13:26:41] <prospectacle> brb
[13:28:00] <MrBluze> crutchy: yes
[13:28:19] <MrBluze> but keeping the socket open in such a way that you can just do event driven communication naturally and easily
[13:29:02] <MrBluze> and the html should have been thrown out in favour of a user interface protocol .. akin to what GTK uses, or WxWidgets, or glade
[13:29:35] <crutchy> you can use the ob_flush function to dump data in the socket without terminating the connection, then call ob_end_flush to kill the connection
[13:29:36] <MrBluze> u send the user interface to the browser, and the browser runs it and sends events back
[13:30:04] <crutchy> most developers use some kind of rpc for that
[13:30:09] <MrBluze> crutchy: but this method should be default .. not an exception by smart programmers
[13:31:10] <crutchy> i think rpc may be a little more efficient (on-demand)
[13:31:15] <crutchy> dunno though
[13:31:19] <crutchy> i kinda hate rpc
[13:31:34] <MrBluze> as a teenager, i remember our programming group drafting up a protocol to use instead of Ascii for BBS interfaces
[13:31:44] <MrBluze> pre-html
[13:31:48] <crutchy> mkay
[13:32:02] <crutchy> html seems ok. it's all the dom shit that wrecked it
[13:32:26] <crutchy> and then the flood of js
[13:32:28] <MrBluze> we had in mind that the browser draws up the active areas, and u click them (or have hotkeys for them), and all that happens is the browser sends the keypress or mouse press
[13:32:47] <MrBluze> and then it continues to draw the interface depending on what is sent .. never erasing the page
[13:32:56] <MrBluze> unless the message is "clear page"
[13:33:07] <MrBluze> it's just as simple as that .. and suddenly u dont need ajax
[13:33:32] <crutchy> but you hold the connection open all the time yeah?
[13:33:38] <MrBluze> we figured you could use any page definiton format. pdf even
[13:33:46] <MrBluze> well the connection and session are one and the same
[13:33:47] <MrBluze> yes
[13:33:58] <crutchy> seems like a good idea to me
[13:34:06] <MrBluze> each person's experience on the server is a separate instance
[13:34:07] <crutchy> nowadays anyway
[13:34:14] <MrBluze> this was 1990
[13:34:21] <crutchy> maybe 10 years ago bandwidth was precious
[13:34:22] <MrBluze> 1989 or therabouts
[13:34:33] <MrBluze> .. well we were going to do this with ascii first
[13:34:46] <crutchy> mkay
[13:34:58] <crutchy> so sorta like irc as far as connection goes
[13:35:05] <MrBluze> (and it was already being done .. u never redraw a page if you can move the cursor to the required location first)
[13:35:36] <MrBluze> html had the problem in that it was designed just to download static document after static document
[13:35:47] <MrBluze> it's lame and stupid
[13:35:54] <crutchy> you kinda talking about a database application?
[13:36:33] <crutchy> a live database application over http
[13:36:45] <xlefay> keeping connections open is a terrible idea for websites, that'd be open the door for a DoS
[13:36:54] <MrBluze> we just wanted to do this with our bbs
[13:37:18] <crutchy> i can see how it would have put huge strain on servers in the 90s
[13:37:28] <MrBluze> not really, crutchy
[13:37:30] <crutchy> nowadays might not be such a problem
[13:37:36] <xlefay> All I'll have to do is, open enough connections and interact with it, before legit visitors can't. There is a 'keep-alive' though, which allows a socket to be re-used *iirc*
[13:37:38] <MrBluze> no.. its not a big load
[13:37:44] <MrBluze> its simply a different way of drawing the page
[13:37:51] <MrBluze> and suddenly u ahve event driven pages instead of static
[13:38:18] <crutchy> did they have servers that could handle more than 256 connections in 1990? :-P
[13:38:31] <MrBluze> instead of every new http connection mandating a page reset, u just have a language that allows drawing over the screen
[13:38:37] <xlefay> Ok.. I haven't read the entire convo, but.. isn't this what Ajax is for? Event (behavior) driven?
[13:38:42] <crutchy> back then 512 kb was more than enough for anyone
[13:38:44] <xlefay> well, JS in general ;)
[13:38:50] <MrBluze> xlefay: problem with ajax and js is it's a hack
[13:39:06] <MrBluze> crutchy: our bbs had 4 connections running on a pc-xt
[13:39:23] <xlefay> Well, considering it's standard, I wouldn't call it a hack
[13:39:25] <crutchy> but what if 1000 people had 4 connections each?
[13:39:50] <MrBluze> ..
[13:39:55] <crutchy> not sayin that would have happened back then
[13:39:58] <MrBluze> well if you had to throw the entire thing out
[13:40:07] <xlefay> 4000 connections, lol
[13:40:09] <MrBluze> im just saying, a replacement for html
[13:40:21] <crutchy> that would almost fill up an entire cray xmp :-P
[13:40:24] <MrBluze> where rendering is progressive
[13:40:32] <MrBluze> just like the user interface of a real application
[13:40:43] <crutchy> didn't they have that mrbluze?
[13:40:53] <MrBluze> who had it?
[13:40:58] <MrBluze> linux has had it forever
[13:41:01] <xlefay> MrBluze, why do we need a replacement though?
[13:41:04] <crutchy> banks and data entry centers
[13:41:07] <crutchy> i think
[13:41:08] <crutchy> dunno
[13:41:11] <MrBluze> yes they did, crutchy
[13:41:14] <crutchy> inda just assumed
[13:41:15] <Brylarke> That's what I think too xlefay
[13:41:21] <MrBluze> unix and so on had their thin client ideas
[13:41:40] <MrBluze> xlefay: we wont get a replacement, but the current system is stupid nonetheless
[13:41:48] <xlefay> HTML is just mark up - and it's extremely inexpensive compared to other mechanisms
[13:41:56] <crutchy> i like the html 4 standard
[13:42:00] <crutchy> and css 2
[13:42:15] <xlefay> I would dare to question that statement. HTML is merely mark up, that's it.
[13:42:17] <MrBluze> it's only workable because of js
[13:42:32] <MrBluze> but js should not be necessary
[13:42:43] <MrBluze> html5 i think is meant to address all this
[13:42:51] <MrBluze> better late than never
[13:43:00] <xlefay> HTML5 is just a funny name to refer to HTML standard 5, CSS3 & JS.. that is what HTML5 is.
[13:43:57] <MrBluze> yes.. but as per above, if our humble programming group's approach had been taken, html would have been interactive much sooner and without js
[13:45:13] <MrBluze> uhm,, not interactive, but event driven / live
[13:45:51] <MrBluze> html is a kind of pdf nearly .. that's why it sucked for so long
[13:46:14] <xlefay> There are good reasons why HTML is static; and pretty good reasons why JS exists, it's intended to be optional, and creating event driven sites... that has a lot of possible use cases, but is it really needed?
[13:46:38] <MrBluze> really needed? yes
[13:46:40] <xlefay> What if I wanted a simple, static websites, just one page, nothing fancy? HTML is perfect.
[13:46:51] <xlefay> If I want some neat styling, I'd add some CSS
[13:46:56] <MrBluze> if u wanted a static website
[13:47:07] <MrBluze> u start your code with "CLS"
[13:47:12] <xlefay> Now, if I wanted to make it more interactive, I'd add some JS; essentially, it's layers upon layerss
[13:47:28] <MrBluze> xlefay: look at a bash script
[13:47:31] <MrBluze> u can just echo stuff
[13:47:34] <MrBluze> or you can make it interactive
[13:47:39] <MrBluze> it's not rocket science and its not expensive
[13:48:10] <MrBluze> js is overkill for 99% of the time
[13:48:16] <MrBluze> and it's a security problem that never seems to go away
[13:48:18] <xlefay> Right, but, executing a bash script, for every user visiting your site (depending on the numbers) may be expensive. So you do it on their side, which makes the results unreliable
[13:48:27] <MrBluze> ..
[13:48:34] <MrBluze> u dont have to run a bash interface
[13:48:39] <xlefay> JS isn't a security problem. Stupid programmers who write JS wrong are the problem however.
[13:48:45] <MrBluze> but bash knows that if you want a static page, it just cat's it
[13:48:54] <crutchy> TEXT FILES FTW!!!
[13:48:55] <xlefay> I figured that much
[13:49:12] <MrBluze> no, JS is .. because for the 5 or 6 commands u use, you get 1,0000000 commands open for use
[13:49:36] <MrBluze> but if your protocol is for interface drawing only, it's not like it's gonna go and read the dna of your underpants
[13:49:47] <xlefay> MrBluze, right, so the language gets blamed for the misuse by users & programmers? That doesn't seem fair.
[13:50:15] <MrBluze> xlefay: how many times have i read in the security bulletin "a cleverly crafted bit of JS can rape your sister's PC"
[13:50:26] <MrBluze> or whatever
[13:50:28] <crutchy> https://panopticlick.eff.org
[13:50:57] <xlefay> MrBluze, cleverly crafted C can rape your sister's PC too.
[13:51:05] <crutchy> dayam!
[13:51:13] <xlefay> it doesn't even have to be clever. The point your making is that it's allowed to run via a browser.
[13:51:18] <MrBluze> so i am arguing that most of what people ever used flash for, or JS for, or even modern CSS from, should have been part of html in the first place
[13:51:33] <MrBluze> ie: most of what it was, was that page refreshes were ugly and costly
[13:51:40] <xlefay> Which makes it the browsers fault for even allowing it.
[13:51:53] <MrBluze> so why the hell did they not disable those in the first place and allow the html write over itself on teh basis of events>
[13:52:07] <crutchy> no raping sisters xlefay
[13:52:14] <crutchy> especially not with C
[13:52:33] <MrBluze> the problem is u have a huge tractor in order to put a bit of soil in a flower pot
[13:53:00] <xlefay> hmm, the biggest flaw with that logic I see is that, if the flash, js & CSS functionalities had been part of HTML in the first place, then HTML in itself would be the biggest security issue.
[13:53:12] <MrBluze> no no no
[13:53:24] <MrBluze> people make flashing crap and stupid stuff in flash
[13:53:27] <xlefay> crutchy, MrBluze started it!
[13:53:34] <MrBluze> and people make all kinds of wysiwyg attempts in js
[13:53:40] <MrBluze> and all sorts of stupid things
[13:53:42] <crutchy> delphi, maybe
[13:53:48] <crutchy> :-P
[13:53:53] <MrBluze> but if you just take HTML .. just look at that
[13:54:10] <MrBluze> and allow the HTML to draw over itself instead of refresh-page when a link is chosen
[13:54:30] <MrBluze> then most of the other stuff would have been avoided because people can get by without it
[13:54:45] <crutchy> isn't that what dhtml stands for?
[13:54:49] <xlefay> Ironically, people tended to agree with you at some point yet, it was already to late "to go back" and thus they chose the next best thing, JS ;-)
[13:54:51] <MrBluze> i mean they saw it ages ago.. and they did frames.. wtf
[13:55:02] <prospectacle> I think the main benefit of having an ostensibly stateless protocol on which state needs to be layered (cookies, ajax, etc), is that you can write pages that don't need a server once they've been served. And then if the server comes back, you can do updates or changes.
[13:55:04] <xlefay> dhtml woa.. haven't heard that term in years
[13:55:31] <MrBluze> prospectacle: but if you start a page with 'clear canvas' or equivalent, u have stateless
[13:55:45] <MrBluze> what they have done is defaulted 'clear canvas' and ruined it
[13:56:04] <MrBluze> just allow the html to draw over itself :)
[13:56:34] <prospectacle> mrbluze, I wouldn't say it's ruined. they would have designed it differently no doubt, had they known where it would end up, of course.
[13:56:50] <MrBluze> prospectacle: we knew it before html.. ppl were doing this on BBS's
[13:56:51] <crutchy> i kinda like a mixed bag
[13:56:55] <crutchy> ultimate flexibility
[13:57:00] <crutchy> stateless or stateful
[13:57:00] <MrBluze> u'd have had a mixed bag anyway, crutchy
[13:57:15] <MrBluze> stateless and stateful can coexist .. its the stupid design that broke that
[13:57:16] <crutchy> stateless can be quick and simple
[13:57:30] <MrBluze> bash scripts can be stateless and stateful
[13:57:35] <MrBluze> that is OLD technology
[13:57:40] <xlefay> Wait.. are you saying, we'll be able to have real MVC via HTML then?!
[13:57:54] <prospectacle> mrbluze, you may be right but I'm not completely clear on what you're proposing. Let's start at the top. A site/page is requested, and some markup is sent. Does your system do this part in the same way?
[13:57:54] <MrBluze> yes why not!
[13:57:56] <crutchy> but what about 20 years ago?
[13:57:57] <MrBluze> that's the entire point
[13:58:16] <crutchy> hindsight is always 20/20
[13:58:18] <MrBluze> yes, prospectacle
[13:58:29] <MrBluze> crutchy: we had this idea in 1989 or maybe 1990
[13:58:48] <xlefay> You can always suggest it on the w3c mailing list
[13:58:48] <crutchy> yes but i don't think anyone could have imagined how the internet/web would evolve
[13:58:51] <MrBluze> it's like this.. take an ascii page - ascii allows cursor repositioning by some ascii codes right
[13:58:52] <prospectacle> ok, then i read the document, and I'm like. Hmm, tell me more about this bit, I click on a link that sends an ajax request that gets some more detail to expand the section I clicked.
[13:59:11] <MrBluze> prospectacle: not quite
[13:59:15] <crutchy> except maybe steve jobs :-P
[13:59:28] <MrBluze> u load a page, which has links.. yes
[13:59:37] <MrBluze> clikcing a link loads the content of the link
[13:59:46] <MrBluze> and starts rendering it without clearing the canvas
[13:59:56] <crutchy> i think mrbluze is just talking about integrating something like ajax and html
[14:00:03] <crutchy> into something that isn't retarded
[14:00:10] <MrBluze> that's all
[14:00:10] <xlefay> It's more like.. websites become GUI applications
[14:00:15] <xlefay> That's what it sounds like to me
[14:00:17] <MrBluze> if u want to clear the canvas, u say "clear the canvas' ffs'
[14:00:28] <MrBluze> well we did this with ascii first
[14:00:30] <MrBluze> not with GUI
[14:00:50] <crutchy> back when databases were displayed on black and green balloons :-P
[14:00:52] <MrBluze> if u want to clear part of the canvas u say, clear a box
[14:00:54] <xlefay> Well.. let's no go back to the voting via e-mail, err, I mean, CLI days in this case
[14:01:21] <MrBluze> move cursor to wherever, start rendering your html again
[14:01:44] <MrBluze> and so on.. u can very easily make a user interface work nicely without need for scripts and fancy stuff
[14:02:05] <xlefay> but.. here's the real question, WHY would it be better than the current technologies we have now, concrete, real reasons (saying, JS is stupid or that it requires scripts isn't valid imo)
[14:02:07] <prospectacle> mrbluze, what if you want to change/resize/reposition existing elements?
[14:02:10] <crutchy> how would get be handled on the server?
[14:02:29] <crutchy> unspasticate_last(crutchy)
[14:02:34] <MrBluze> prospectacle: well in the modern era you'd send commands to reposition the elements, but in ascii u draw over them
[14:02:53] <xlefay> Essentially, you'll change the DOM properties of said 'element'
[14:03:01] <xlefay> or, said 'elements'
[14:03:04] <MrBluze> yes
[14:03:11] <MrBluze> the reason it's better xlefay is because it's tidier
[14:03:24] <MrBluze> u restrict the functionality of the visual display to visual things only
[14:03:36] <xlefay> So, essentially, the browser would be in control of the representation
[14:03:40] <prospectacle> mrbluze, could you reposition or resize things without sending a request to the sever and getting a response back?
[14:03:40] <MrBluze> if you need to actually interact with files and the outside world, you invoke js or other dangerous stuff
[14:03:50] <MrBluze> prospectacle: usually not
[14:03:50] <xlefay> (well.. it already is.. so there's no difference there)
[14:04:04] <MrBluze> otherwise the server will not know what the UI is doing .. unless u have windows
[14:04:15] <crutchy> i have windows
[14:04:21] <MrBluze> lol
[14:04:23] * crutchy looks through one
[14:04:30] <prospectacle> mrbluze, although it occured in a kludgy way, I think the ability of js to do local stuff instantly, as well as initiate a server request and process the response, is a strength.
[14:04:31] <xlefay> OK.. let's get this myth out of the world once and for all. JS is NOT dangerous, in any case, not any more dangerous than C, or whatever else
[14:04:35] <MrBluze> ie: windows as per xerox GUI
[14:04:52] <crutchy> js doesn't kill people... idiots with js kill people
[14:04:53] <xlefay> prospectacle, as an addition, trying to store stuff in localStorage or so, requires the users permission
[14:04:54] <MrBluze> xlefay: js is bloat
[14:04:57] <xlefay> crutchy, right
[14:05:20] <MrBluze> my point is.. the user interface side of things should just be a single entity for user interface
[14:05:29] <xlefay> MrBluze, that's in the eye of the beholder imo
[14:05:36] <prospectacle> xlefay, yes I hope they figure out local storage properly, it's a good idea.
[14:05:41] <MrBluze> js and other things should be used for processing etc
[14:05:48] <crutchy> i think xlefay's bot should just take over the internet
[14:05:55] <crutchy> killing all the js idiots
[14:05:57] <prospectacle> I mean I messed around with some indexedDB and it looks promising
[14:06:05] <xlefay> yeah it does eh
[14:06:14] <xlefay> crutchy, .. it'd kill me
[14:06:19] <crutchy> lol
[14:06:27] <crutchy> you'd have god mode access though
[14:06:30] <xlefay> although, 'idiot' is a bit .. well, excessive ;-)
[14:06:43] <MrBluze> i mean, the server should be able to do the entire processing job and send visual information only to the user, and the user only sends keyboard and mouse feedback to the server. if the server wants to offload work to the client, it sends javascript for that task.
[14:06:54] <crutchy> i haven't attained the rank of 'idiot' when it comes to js yet
[14:06:58] <MrBluze> or whatever script
[14:07:46] <prospectacle> mrbluze, if the server processed mouse and key events, interactive webpages would be much slower
[14:07:47] <prospectacle> even today
[14:07:50] <MrBluze> anyway.. we had this in our minds 20+ years ago before any of us had even heard of html
[14:07:50] <xlefay> MrBluze, that seems, extremely excessive
[14:08:06] <MrBluze> why, xlefay??
[14:08:09] <prospectacle> it varies a lot according to the site and connection, but it can be anywhere from 10ms to 10s to get a server response
[14:08:22] <xlefay> What prospectacle said, sending keyboard and mouse feedback to a server..
[14:08:38] <MrBluze> ok, listen. if you wanted to serve web pages traditionally, then the server JUST SERVES PAGES and that's it
[14:08:47] <MrBluze> keyboard and mouse feedback is what u are doing when you click a link
[14:08:56] <crutchy> mrbluze... that kinda sounds a bitlike novel netware
[14:08:58] <prospectacle> mrbluze, also when you load a js menu
[14:09:02] <xlefay> So, essentially, only when you trigger an event.
[14:09:07] <MrBluze> yes
[14:09:16] <crutchy> netware clients didn't even have hard disks
[14:09:16] <xlefay> ah.. was already wondering 'wtf?'
[14:09:31] <MrBluze> if u want to be efficient, u just say, only events i want are when the user clicks in a box
[14:09:31] <prospectacle> mrbluze, a js menu is instant, though, regardless of the server
[14:09:35] <xlefay> MrBluze, essentially.. you're idea is JS in HTML, essentially.
[14:09:41] <crutchy> the booted off the network, and pretty much everything was done by the server
[14:09:41] <MrBluze> no
[14:09:44] <MrBluze> not js in html
[14:09:58] <MrBluze> it's html that does not clear itself every time new html is loaded
[14:09:58] <xlefay> MrBluze, combining JS and HTML essentially* unless.. I misunderstand
[14:10:11] <xlefay> features of both.. or so, it seems to me
[14:10:27] <MrBluze> .. js only needed if you want to actually do real processing client side
[14:10:33] <MrBluze> to save on server work
[14:10:41] <crutchy> maybe just a bit better integrated into the language, mrbluze?
[14:10:43] <prospectacle> mrbluze, let's say for example I have categories on my navigation panel on the left, and i want to expand one. In js it's immediate, nothing sent back to the server.
[14:10:58] <prospectacle> mrbluze, or if I want to shrink/hide some story
[14:11:05] <xlefay> The server shouldn't have to do anything imo, except say "Here's what you requested, do with it whatever you please."
[14:11:18] <MrBluze> prospectacle: yes but if you dont have JS .. like html, u get a new page .. look at soylentnews - and u know what i mean
[14:11:42] <MrBluze> the server should say "you clicked link X on page Y, which means I only redraw the text body"
[14:11:46] <crutchy> xlefay, but ajax does help in that you don't have to download everything off the serve at once
[14:11:59] <MrBluze> and that shouldnt be the job of js
[14:12:04] <MrBluze> it should have alwyas been part of html
[14:12:23] <xlefay> crutchy, exactly.. you only download what you need - but, the client says "This is what I need" ; the server doesn't need to connect "X to page Y" itself
[14:12:30] <MrBluze> yes, js can do all this client side - but only because u loaded all the site logic in advance
[14:12:43] <prospectacle> mrbluze, yes if you don't have javascript. But with your system or with html you need something like js if you want instant client changes.
[14:12:54] <MrBluze> prospectacle: yes u would
[14:13:05] <MrBluze> or if you had read-ahead u could make it instant
[14:13:16] <prospectacle> mrbluze, so given you need js for some things. What's the problem with also using it for server requests?
[14:13:28] <xlefay> They generally are pretty instant in my experience
[14:13:31] <MrBluze> after all JS is just doing read-ahead by loading multiple kb of data in advance .. which is expensive
[14:13:59] <MrBluze> well.. if i go back 20 years
[14:14:06] <xlefay> expensive? You can either pre-load it all, or, load it on demand based on the data someone inputs
[14:14:10] <MrBluze> js turned my computer into cold treacle
[14:14:13] <xlefay> but.. it's 2014
[14:14:50] <prospectacle> mrbluze, yes, the engines were written fairly poorly back then. However any alternative web client may or may not have been written poorly.
[14:15:00] <MrBluze> xlefay: i am saying that because of html being badly designed we are left with a disgusting mess that means you need to know 3 or 4 languages and account for dozens of quirky browsers
[14:15:05] <prospectacle> I mean it's not the fact of having a scripting language for server-requests that's the problem in itself.
[14:15:10] <MrBluze> to write a proper interactive webpage
[14:15:45] <prospectacle> mrbluze you do need three or four languages. but separation of jobs in these languages can be a benefit.
[14:15:50] <MrBluze> :) ok, the problem i am seeing is u are all used to the way it is and cant see beyond it
[14:15:51] <xlefay> MrBluze, I honestly don't see how your idea solves that.. one day, it'll be outdated like HTML & CSS got outdated and something new would be needed (like how JS came to be) and so forth..
[14:16:06] <MrBluze> html is not outdated
[14:16:12] <MrBluze> it underlies everything
[14:16:13] -!- exec has quit [Quit: exec]
[14:16:21] <MrBluze> and it curses it
[14:16:26] <xlefay> Outdated was the wrong choice of words, but the point should be obvious
[14:16:31] <prospectacle> mrbluze, probably everyone who's made web pages has at various points thought "there must be a better way", but when you try to find alternatives for specific actions and features, it's not so easy.
[14:16:46] <MrBluze> it's too late for it
[14:17:24] <prospectacle> even if I had the power to reinvent it, I'd probably keep certain parts. Separation of gui and script language would be one
[14:17:52] <MrBluze> if any of you remember coloured ascii pages on bbs's
[14:17:58] <MrBluze> u could do ascii animations
[14:18:09] <MrBluze> redraw parts of the page as required, etc
[14:18:12] <prospectacle> it works well, imo. and when it didn't work well, it was simply that js was implemented poorly (slowly, non-standard, etc).
[14:18:18] <xlefay> HTML = [markup.. can't find a better way to describe in English]; CSS = Presentation; JS = behavior .. pretty neat how it works though
[14:18:44] <prospectacle> mrbluze, if you redraw parts, you lose the ability to manipulate page object programatically
[14:18:47] <MrBluze> .. html dropped the part that ascii provided, which is the update-without-refresh
[14:19:08] -!- exec [exec!~exec@724-640-25-593.cust.aussiebb.net] has joined #Soylent
[14:19:11] <xlefay> rofl
[14:19:11] <MrBluze> why?
[14:19:11] <exec> Politicians speak for their parties, and parties never are, never have
[14:19:12] <exec> been, and never will be wrong.
[14:19:12] <exec> -- Walter Dwight
[14:19:21] <MrBluze> u can programatically redraw anything if u want
[14:19:22] <xlefay> damn straight exec !
[14:19:37] <prospectacle> mrbluze, let's say you have three articles, then you redraw something that goes over the top of all three of them..
[14:19:53] <MrBluze> then u have cleared the page
[14:19:58] <MrBluze> if that was the intention
[14:20:01] <prospectacle> mrbluze, do those three articles still exist? Can something like js (or equivalent) access and manipulate them. Or would you have no client-side scripting at all?
[14:20:12] <MrBluze> u can have client side scripting
[14:20:15] <prospectacle> mrbluze, well oyu also have navigation/titles etc outside of those articles
[14:20:16] <xlefay> I can't resist.. I gotta bsod soylent..
[14:20:17] <xlefay> bsod
[14:20:25] <xlefay> crutchy, you broke it!
[14:20:25] <exec> 00,12
[14:20:26] <exec> 00,12 12,00 Soylent 00,12
[14:20:26] <exec> 00,12
[14:20:26] <exec> 00,12 A fatal exception 0E has occurred at 0028:C0011E36 in VXD VMM(01) +
[14:20:26] <exec> 00,12 00010E36. The current application will be terminated.
[14:20:26] <exec> 00,12
[14:20:26] <exec> 00,12 * Press any key to terminate the current application.
[14:20:26] <exec> 00,12 * Press CTRL+ALT+DEL again to restart your computer. You will
[14:20:27] <exec> 00,12 lose any unsaved information in all applications.
[14:20:27] <exec> 00,12
[14:20:28] <exec> 00,12 Press any key to continue _
[14:20:28] <exec> 00,12
[14:20:35] <xlefay> Oh.. there we go
[14:20:41] <MrBluze> any key
[14:20:53] <crutchy> where's the any key?
[14:20:58] <prospectacle> mrbluze, ok so you have a navigation bar and three articles. you redraw something that goes over those three articles...
[14:21:00] <crutchy> there's no any key!
[14:21:03] <MrBluze> prospectacle: in most cases this obviates the need for client side scripting
[14:21:11] <MrBluze> yes, prospectacle
[14:21:15] <prospectacle> mrbluze, then you want to do a client-side script, that makes one of those articles visible, or places it somewhere.
[14:21:33] <prospectacle> mrbluze, do you need to send that article from the server again, or is it acessible still from the client-side-script?
[14:21:40] <MrBluze> ok
[14:21:49] <xlefay> Technically, the client still has to process it, unless, you of course send a screenshot over the internetz
[14:21:55] <MrBluze> the idea is if you want to draw a layer, then u creat a layer and draw on it
[14:22:10] <crutchy> div soup yay!
[14:22:16] <MrBluze> well
[14:22:27] <MrBluze> the idea also is, crutchy, the server knows what it's doing
[14:22:32] <xlefay> crutchy, it's better than tabular soup!
[14:22:44] <crutchy> what about tubular soup?
[14:22:51] <crutchy> clogged with arti's tacos
[14:22:51] <xlefay> <tables> and such.. ya'know
[14:22:56] <MrBluze> even now u do the same thing except u have to hack the shit out of it to make it work
[14:23:14] <xlefay> MrBluze, "hack" the shit out of it??? What JS are you using??
[14:23:23] * crutchy is guilty of div soup *hangs head*
[14:23:27] <MrBluze> has any of you ever written a user interface without using an API?
[14:23:48] <crutchy> you aren't using Java Soup are you mrbluze?
[14:23:53] <MrBluze> lol
[14:24:08] <xlefay> Does pen and paper count?
[14:24:11] <prospectacle> mrbluze, ok simpler example, one everyone can understand: you drop down a menu. How does this happen under your system?
[14:24:13] <xlefay> whiteboards?
[14:24:38] <crutchy> when you need to update your screen, you just throw it out and get a new one
[14:24:50] <MrBluze> prospectacle: your link loads some html (or whatever it is), that directs a drop down menu to be drawn without refreshing the rest of the page
[14:25:02] <prospectacle> mrbluze, so it requires a server-request?
[14:25:07] <MrBluze> yes
[14:25:13] <prospectacle> that is a problem in my opinion
[14:25:17] <MrBluze> BUT
[14:25:18] <prospectacle> I want my menus instant
[14:25:25] <MrBluze> BUT BUT BUT
[14:25:31] <crutchy> that's the idea of the stay-alive socket, right mrbluze?
[14:25:33] <prospectacle> oh, sorry... but...
[14:25:42] <MrBluze> if you have read-ahead, you can do all of this stuff in advance
[14:25:51] <MrBluze> on designated links, sucha s for a menu
[14:25:52] <xlefay> crutchy, them kiddies will LOVE that!
[14:26:00] <MrBluze> so the browser can make this instantaneous
[14:26:24] <MrBluze> so the server serves up all those instructions as the page loads, and the page renders fast
[14:26:43] <xlefay> Essentially, your suggestion wouldn't use a proper keep-alive timeout but instead stay for a very long time, because after all, the server has to keep track of the state right?
[14:26:47] <crutchy> a streamed web page
[14:26:58] <MrBluze> crutchy: yes
[14:27:06] <prospectacle> mrbluze, what if the contents/layout of the menu depends on user input (e.g. form data) in some way?
[14:27:17] <MrBluze> prospectacle: in that case u dont read ahead
[14:27:25] <xlefay> MrBluze, effectively making it hundreds if not thousands times easier to DoS the webserver from one location
[14:27:37] <crutchy> user input goes through the stream to the server and the server responds appropriately
[14:27:44] <MrBluze> no, xlefay
[14:27:49] <xlefay> crutchy, but the socket, remains open
[14:27:54] <prospectacle> mrbluze, this would mean it was slower than using, e.g. javascript to format/display your menus programatically
[14:28:15] <MrBluze> prospectacle: yes
[14:28:23] <MrBluze> its not meant to obviate the need for js in all cases
[14:28:25] <MrBluze> just in most
[14:28:28] <xlefay> if I can open enough sockets, I can effectively block other connections (the same problem IRC has, of course, it's more effective to just ping flood it)
[14:28:35] <crutchy> basically no different than today except instead of closing connections and opening negotiating new ones each time any part of page needs to be updated, it streams live through one connection
[14:28:52] <MrBluze> well u could in theory close sockets too
[14:28:56] <xlefay> crutchy, most http servers have a keep-alive timeout that's sensible, 30 - 90 seconds (tops)
[14:29:10] <crutchy> yeah
[14:29:10] <MrBluze> once the read ahead is finished u stop loading
[14:29:12] <xlefay> That allows your browser, to quickly download JS, CSS, etc.. along
[14:29:23] <crutchy> you can keep a connection live indefinitely
[14:29:30] <crutchy> just don't call ob_end_flush
[14:29:39] <crutchy> after ob_start
[14:29:52] <xlefay> crutchy, in the case of the streaming idea, I'd employ what IRC does
[14:29:53] <prospectacle> mrbluze, say we do read-ahead, and it's a static menu. We drop it down, so that effectively adds another layer on top of the page, is that right?
[14:29:54] <xlefay> PING PONG!
[14:30:01] <MrBluze> prospectacle: yes
[14:30:03] <crutchy> that is more fun
[14:30:25] <MrBluze> u define events for everything
[14:30:43] <xlefay> events the server knows, but the client doesn't, right? (why else keep the connection open)
[14:30:43] <crutchy> ob_start/ob_flush is only server>client (no reverse)
[14:30:46] <prospectacle> mrbluze, ok so there is some code that says, when this event (mouse click) happens, put this new content (menu) in this position (whichever specific item the user clicked on). Is that right?
[14:30:49] <MrBluze> so if the mouse leaves the menu, it causes a server request (which is read ahead already) which deletes the menu
[14:31:12] <xlefay> Essentially.. what you propose, would be the client connecting to the server like VNC.. and only seeing the web page
[14:31:28] <xlefay> That's it.. the server decide everything and the client doesn't do noting
[14:31:28] <prospectacle> mrbluze, or more specifically, when this event happens, call this address (which has been pre-read), and that address includes code to add a new layer
[14:31:37] <crutchy> client still renders
[14:31:37] <MrBluze> right, xlefay - as a default
[14:31:51] <MrBluze> unless the client is sent some script and .. provided u want that.. it executes
[14:31:58] <MrBluze> yes prospectacle
[14:31:59] <xlefay> crutchy, exactly.. both the server and client do it
[14:32:06] <crutchy> you not going to send a bitmap of every updated screen down the tube
[14:32:11] <xlefay> crutchy, apparently, so
[14:32:19] <prospectacle> mrbluze, then when you clear the menu, it's effectively reading an address that says, what "clear layer x"?
[14:32:26] <MrBluze> yes
[14:33:05] <prospectacle> mrbluze, is this better than using javascript to do the same thing?
[14:33:16] <crutchy> i guess you could send a gif, and then on update just send the portion of the window that is invalidated, like the windows gdi
[14:33:18] <xlefay> crutchy, so essentially, you connect to a website, and your client renders the bitmaps for you
[14:33:26] <MrBluze> if your page is highly complex and has things like client side encryptioni or compression algorithms or something, u use a client side script
[14:33:29] <xlefay> the server renders the site, you render the bitmap
[14:33:56] <xlefay> This seems awfully inefficient to be honest
[14:34:03] <MrBluze> but if this is just a navigation issue, just use this method - which is the vast majority of sites
[14:34:13] <xlefay> The server would use a lot more resources, virtual hosting would be a bitch
[14:34:26] <crutchy> server capacity seems like the main issue
[14:34:28] <MrBluze> xlefay: the server already sends all this shit to the client
[14:34:31] <crutchy> not so much for text only
[14:34:39] <crutchy> but as soon as you get into complex layout
[14:34:47] <crutchy> menus etc
[14:34:50] <MrBluze> when you load js, u load instructions for every conceivable outcome
[14:34:54] <xlefay> MrBluze, and per what you said, the server would do all the processing, the client would do nothing but render the bitmaps
[14:35:03] <crutchy> only in utf8 though
[14:35:03] <prospectacle> what is the benefit over using a client-script to replace/hide a menu? The benefit of a client script is flexibility, of course.
[14:35:06] <MrBluze> but the server has prepared answers already
[14:35:19] <MrBluze> it just sends static responses to all those requests .. its all prepared
[14:35:34] <crutchy> server can't predict user input though
[14:35:36] <xlefay> Essentially, instead of the client being prepared, it's the server
[14:35:36] <prospectacle> mrbluze with read-ahead you're effectively loading multiple possible outcomes, anyway
[14:35:45] <crutchy> most of the web is dynamically generated nowadays
[14:35:47] <MrBluze> prospectacle: right
[14:35:54] <crutchy> based on user queries
[14:35:58] <prospectacle> so what is the benefit?
[14:36:00] <MrBluze> crutchy: most of the web is not as dynamic as u think lol
[14:36:08] <crutchy> it is
[14:36:14] <crutchy> just google doesn't index it
[14:36:17] <crutchy> (it can't)
[14:36:33] <crutchy> estimates suggest google indexes about 10% of the web
[14:36:35] <MrBluze> prospectacle: the benefit is that you have a single language that handles nearly all of what the web does
[14:36:41] <crutchy> the rest is dynamic
[14:36:50] <xlefay> crutchy, you'll be surprised how good Google can index those things nowadays, it can detect it; but MrBluze is correct, there's still a lot of undynamic sites out there
[14:36:52] <MrBluze> and for the rest, u can use scripts
[14:37:29] <MrBluze> for example, its STUPID that slash requires a page reload every time u navigate anywhere
[14:37:30] <xlefay> I see the benefit of one language but the limitations are awful.. and if you extend it, you'd get an even bigger mess than, as you say, you have now
[14:37:54] <prospectacle> MrBluze. I believe most people would still need/want to learn client-side scripting for many many things.
[14:37:56] <xlefay> MrBluze, but a whole lot more efficient; also note, your idea doesn't allow cache and such
[14:38:00] <crutchy> slash could send the entire site content to your browser cache
[14:38:01] <MrBluze> html should have from the beginning allowed for the center column to be reloaded without any difficulty
[14:38:14] <prospectacle> Mrbluze, in which case, one-language isn't really an option
[14:38:31] <MrBluze> prospectacle: well we got around it for a while with iframes
[14:38:48] <MrBluze> but that was an after thought which is why it was shit
[14:38:49] <prospectacle> mrbluze, yes I remember them fondly
[14:39:10] <crutchy> ~q
[14:39:10] -!- exec has quit [Quit: exec]
[14:39:11] <xlefay> The biggest issue I see though, is that the server cannot possibly, ever serve a cached page
[14:39:23] <MrBluze> why not, xlefay?
[14:39:24] <prospectacle> mrbluze it's one big afterthought, this web of ours
[14:39:44] <MrBluze> u could have nearly all of this as static pages
[14:39:47] <prospectacle> mrbluze, even re-writing parts of the page with pure html would have been an afterthought, had it been done that way.
[14:39:52] <MrBluze> and they can be cached
[14:40:02] <prospectacle> because it was for serving documents, not user interfaces.
[14:40:15] <prospectacle> hyperlinks were meant to be footnotes, to start with, if memory serves
[14:40:16] <MrBluze> prospectacle: that's exactly why we should ahve abandoned html
[14:40:26] <xlefay> How do you propose this being cached? After all, it's the server which processes everything, e.g. when you click something as per your protocol, it won't send the server a message since it's being done on the server? Unless the VNC idea isn't valid which you said it was
[14:40:30] <MrBluze> it is a poor stepchild of pdf
[14:40:53] <MrBluze> xlefay: prospectacle has gotten what i meant i think
[14:40:57] <prospectacle> I dunno I think javascript solves your redraw problem, while solving several others at the same time. So we would have needed it eventually.
[14:41:12] <MrBluze> prospectacle: yes we would have needed js
[14:41:23] <MrBluze> but the web would not suck so much without js
[14:41:35] <xlefay> I think the web sucks without it..
[14:41:37] <deadbeef> [SoylentNews] - OpenBSD Developers Fork OpenSSL, Create LibreSSL - http://sylnt.us - introducing-more-bugs-than-it-cures?
[14:41:42] <xlefay> w00t!
[14:41:57] <crutchy> js sucks, but it feels soo good
[14:41:59] <prospectacle> mrbluze, I get it. you're trying to allow for a better non-js web.
[14:42:02] <MrBluze> xlefay: the web, in my idea, would not suck so much if it lacked js
[14:42:07] <MrBluze> right
[14:42:14] <MrBluze> exactly, prospectacle
[14:42:23] <MrBluze> and this leads to a better web because js is overused
[14:42:36] <MrBluze> js should be used for complicated things
[14:42:40] <prospectacle> mrbluze, I've never really considered trying to not-use js, so I guess it's hard for me to imagine. I think js is great for many things, and fun to write
[14:42:53] <MrBluze> not for every day user interface stuff that should never need it
[14:43:00] <prospectacle> mrbluze, over-used and used-poorly are not necessarily the same things
[14:43:12] <prospectacle> mrbluze, your redraw-read-ahead-requests could be used poorly, no doubt
[14:43:22] <crutchy> i design for no-js, and then make js things supplementary nice to haves
[14:43:36] <MrBluze> prospectacle: if u program for windows or OSX or something, u dont need to hand code every time u do something with a window.. u just get expected behaviours and write your code for events
[14:43:45] <prospectacle> I design for js. If people want to use a static web they don't want to use the kinds of things I write.
[14:44:01] <xlefay> HAHAHAHA the libressl site
[14:44:14] <xlefay> http://www.libressl.org
[14:44:18] <MrBluze> hmm
[14:44:20] <xlefay> It's so awfull HAHAHA I love it
[14:44:21] <crutchy> did oracle buy openssl?
[14:44:30] <MrBluze> NSA bought openssl
[14:44:31] <crutchy> so someone forked it to make libressl?
[14:44:34] <MrBluze> long ago
[14:44:40] <prospectacle> mrbluze, what kinds of things do you mean by "do something with a window", specifically?
[14:44:42] <MrBluze> .. a bit like people buy judges
[14:44:50] <xlefay> "This page scientifically designed to annoy web hipsters. Donate now to stop the Comic Sans and Blink Tags" haha I'm dying of laughter here
[14:45:23] <MrBluze> prospectacle: if you write a basic GUI app, you define your GUI elements using the OS's API, which is easy and quick, and you waste your time not on writing menus and shit, but on writing event code that is specific to your app
[14:46:00] <crutchy> html+js isn't much different though is it mrbluze?
[14:46:05] <prospectacle> mrbluze, html lacks menu items, which is a problem in my opinion, and it lacks tree views, and tabs. But this is not the same as what you are saying
[14:46:19] <crutchy> oh you talking about funky shit
[14:46:20] <MrBluze> crutchy: it is, because html is so damn 'pdf'ish that u cant make it interactive at all without js
[14:46:23] <Popeidol> I didn't realise the blink tag even worked these days
[14:46:26] <prospectacle> mrbluze, for example, it has buttons which change appearance when clicked (so it looks like they're being pressed), without writing any code to make that happen
[14:46:30] <crutchy> mrbluze... i do
[14:46:32] <MrBluze> imagine windows needing you to hand code drag events
[14:46:46] <crutchy> i can analyze an entire FEA model without js
[14:47:01] <crutchy> although the js features are handy :-P
[14:47:20] <xlefay> MrBluze, I disagree with the suggestion that HTML is like PDF. They are extremely different. Things in PDF will _almost_ always appear exactly the same. In fact, what you're suggesting sounds more like "dynamic PDF"
[14:47:43] <prospectacle> mrbluze, other form elements too, you don't need to write code to draw the check in a checkbox. The point is what elements html has or doesn't have. This is not to do with redrawing from the server.
[14:47:56] <crutchy> don't go down that path xlefay... we'll end up with dompdf
[14:48:03] <crutchy> and jspdf
[14:48:05] <xlefay> crutchy, LOL
[14:48:10] <crutchy> and then... ajaxpdf
[14:48:15] <prospectacle> lol
[14:48:16] <prospectacle> watch out
[14:48:16] <crutchy> and flashpdf!
[14:48:17] <xlefay> crutchy, js pdf is already something that exists.. well in some format
[14:48:29] <xlefay> it allows JS to parse PDF files and present them ;-)
[14:48:53] <crutchy> i don't want flashs in my pdfs
[14:49:16] <prospectacle> I think if html had <menu>, <treelist> <tabsheet> and <panel> we would be sitting pretty
[14:49:24] <xlefay> prospectacle, it has <nav> ..
[14:49:26] <Popeidol> crutchy: I am actually shocked adobe has not done that yet
[14:49:27] <xlefay> least, HTML 5 has
[14:49:39] <prospectacle> xlefay, what does that do?
[14:49:52] <crutchy> popeidol: have you ever used 3D pdf?
[14:50:01] <xlefay> Nothing much.. it's just an element, specifically for navigation (I suppose that's to help people with disabilities)
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[14:50:19] <prospectacle> xlefay, oh you mean it's for description rather than behaviour?
[14:50:25] MrBluze|afk is now known as MrBluze
[14:50:26] <xlefay> both I guess
[14:50:29] <Popeidol> crutchy: I have not
[14:50:45] <xlefay> prospectacle, it's just like div-tag really.. but then for nav's specifically
[14:50:52] <prospectacle> interesting
[14:50:56] <xlefay> you'll still use the general JS and stuff for it
[14:50:58] <crutchy> we use it at work. you can export a 3D model from autodesk inventor (or solidworks or whatever) and when you open the pdf you can spit the model around, zoom, pan, etc all in the pdf
[14:50:58] <MrBluze> oh well.. disconnect
[14:51:04] <xlefay> for dynamic elements and shit
[14:51:09] <crutchy> you don't need anything but adobe pdf reader
[14:51:21] <Popeidol> crutchy: that sounds...terrifying and dangerous
[14:51:39] <crutchy> clients have orgasms over it
[14:52:09] <prospectacle> crutchy that sounds pretty cool
[14:52:26] <xlefay> I disagree and agree with Popeidol
[14:52:42] <xlefay> that is scary.. why did they have to use PDF..
[14:52:48] <crutchy> its common
[14:52:55] <xlefay> It's scary.
[14:53:03] <crutchy> it works really well
[14:53:13] <crutchy> i have no idea how it works
[14:53:17] <crutchy> but it does
[14:53:20] <crutchy> :-D
[14:53:23] <MrBluze> adobe invented some good stuff
[14:53:28] <MrBluze> but their software is crap
[14:53:31] <prospectacle> if html had some kind of page-width page-height and ppi settings, it could replace pdf
[14:53:37] <xlefay> Their software is awesome, e.g. photoshop and such
[14:53:55] <xlefay> prospectacle, I'm fairly sure you can write that in JS! *grins*
[14:53:59] <MrBluze> prospectacle: if it had that, and non-auto-refresh, it would rule
[14:54:10] <MrBluze> photoshop is good, but adobe acrobat isnt
[14:54:12] <prospectacle> lol well xlefay there is a js based pdf reader, so you must be able to
[14:54:15] <crutchy> prospectacle... html print layout kinda sucks
[14:54:17] <MrBluze> and for something as straightfoward as pdf
[14:54:21] <crutchy> would be nice to have more control
[14:54:35] <crutchy> or css i should say :-)
[14:54:37] <xlefay> crutchy, eh, you can supply a CSS file specifically for "printing" and stuff
[14:54:44] <crutchy> xlefay: i do
[14:54:48] <crutchy> but it's limited
[14:54:52] <crutchy> and clunky
[14:54:59] <prospectacle> mrbluze, yeah it seems to be missing a few basics that probably wouldn't be hard to add if all the browser vendors could agree
[14:55:02] <crutchy> very hand to do nice headers and footers
[14:55:04] <xlefay> ah ok
[14:55:08] <crutchy> s/hand/hard/
[14:55:08] <SedBot> <crutchy> very hard to do nice headers and footers
[14:55:29] * prospectacle doesn't miss the days of 95% internet explorer, but it sure is hard to get the big 5 browsers to agree on anything
[14:55:34] <Popeidol> I think you're all doing this backwards, guys. I think we need to replace all HTML pages with PDFS.
[14:55:47] <Popeidol> then you can truly control the user experience
[14:55:55] <prospectacle> lol
[14:55:57] <MrBluze> Popeidol: haha u are right in a way
[14:55:57] <crutchy> in 3D!
[14:55:59] <xlefay> LOL
[14:56:04] <prospectacle> I say we scrap the whole thing and use rtf
[14:56:07] <xlefay> Oh please just shoot me already
[14:56:11] <prospectacle> problem solved
[14:56:31] <prospectacle> wait, no, I have it
[14:56:33] <prospectacle> logo
[14:56:39] <Popeidol> let's just use cloud computing to render every page as a PNG and send it to the client terminal
[14:56:39] <crutchy> just use duke nukem viewer
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[14:56:44] <crutchy> documents show on the walls
[14:56:52] <Popeidol> youtube might take a hit, but the rest will be fine
[14:57:07] <xlefay> Popeidol, even better, let's just send a sale representative WITH the PNG to people's homes!
[14:57:12] <xlefay> moar jobs!
[14:57:25] <Popeidol> so we just solved the economy AND ui problems?
[14:57:38] <Popeidol> AT THE SAME TIME?
[14:57:43] <xlefay> Indeed, aren't we awesome?
[14:57:46] <MrBluze> as a soylent greenie i think we should use carrier pigeon for everything
[14:57:50] <MrBluze> especially UI
[14:57:53] <prospectacle> what about teletext, that was pretty good
[14:58:00] <crutchy> after the sales representative arrives with your document, you then have to wait for amazon to send the key to unlock it... via drone copter!
[14:58:00] <prospectacle> over ham radio
[14:58:06] <xlefay> prospectacle, we'll send that via floppies
[14:58:48] <MrBluze> actually i seem to recall a graphics based UI type of solution in use with BBS's before HTML took over
[14:58:58] <prospectacle> floppies are good, imagine how many you could fit in even a standard briefcase
[14:59:01] <MrBluze> must see if i can find it
[14:59:06] <xlefay> It must have sucked, otherwise it would've been in use already
[14:59:18] <xlefay> prospectacle, woa!
[14:59:38] <MrBluze> SkyPix
[14:59:47] <prospectacle> Was anyone else confused when they first used a web-page, becuase you had a text-cursor, but you couldn't enter text, you could only select it
[14:59:52] <prospectacle> that blew my mind at the time.
[15:00:01] <Popeidol> prospectacle: if I can find a cheap source of floppies, I may just test that out
[15:00:07] <MrBluze> http://en.wikipedia.org
[15:00:54] <MrBluze> 1987
[15:01:32] <prospectacle> interesting
[15:01:40] * prospectacle trying to find screenshots
[15:01:51] <xlefay> prospectacle, 'skypix bbs' gives a few
[15:02:28] <Popeidol> not to be confused with skypox, which wiped out most eagles in the 30's
[15:02:44] <MrBluze> that was properly interactive not like html
[15:03:10] <MrBluze> lol.. the 'betamax' of internet markup protocols
[15:06:30] <prospectacle> looks pretty interesting. I can't find any videos or anything, but I guess they would be hard to come by
[15:06:30] <prospectacle> .
[15:07:05] <MrBluze> for its time it was great
[15:07:14] <MrBluze> more flexible than html
[15:07:55] <MrBluze> you could draw vectors anywhere on the page, filled boxes and so on - anything you want
[15:08:09] <prospectacle> It would be cool if someone held a competition to "reinvent the web" ie keeping nothing but tcp/ip , and the same basic design idea, and seeing what people came up with
[15:08:12] <MrBluze> had all the usual paint functions like bucket fill, pattern fill, elipses
[15:08:42] <MrBluze> keep in mind in those days 1200/75 bau
[15:08:45] <MrBluze> baud
[15:08:59] <prospectacle> mrbluze, yeah pretty impressive for the time. you can do a canvas though, now.
[15:09:17] <MrBluze> u cant in html
[15:09:19] <prospectacle> <canvas>
[15:09:21] <MrBluze> u have to use js
[15:09:23] <MrBluze> oh
[15:09:31] <MrBluze> yes but it's contained
[15:09:31] <crutchy> mspaint via socket...
[15:09:34] <MrBluze> u aren't free
[15:09:47] <prospectacle> yes, it's contained, although you can make it take up the whole page
[15:09:58] <MrBluze> .. 2014
[15:10:00] <MrBluze> amazing
[15:10:09] <MrBluze> /sarcasm lol
[15:10:21] <prospectacle> yes, the things that might have been.
[15:10:25] <MrBluze> point is html is too strict
[15:10:34] <MrBluze> like IBM was too rigid
[15:10:56] <crutchy> but IBM wasn't too frigid... it got fucked royally :-P
[15:10:57] <MrBluze> and unfortunately companies like commodore which thought outside the square were squashed
[15:11:17] <MrBluze> to the point that apple.. boring apple, won
[15:11:34] <prospectacle> I think many things could have won out. HTML won in my opinion becuase you could easily send a formatted document. So academics and professionals liked it
[15:11:48] <prospectacle> also it was easy to write
[15:11:59] <MrBluze> html won because it was easy to render
[15:12:10] <MrBluze> especially as academics didnt have graphics
[15:12:21] <prospectacle> <h3>MY dissertation</h3><h2>Why everyone else is wrong</h2><p>Everyone else things this but they have failed to take into account hte latest research</p>
[15:12:21] <MrBluze> and printed everything to dot-matrix
[15:12:36] <prospectacle> etc
[15:12:39] <MrBluze> yes
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[15:13:11] <MrBluze> ah im old and tired and had it i think
[15:13:30] <prospectacle> have a good one mrbluze, thanks for the interesting conversation.
[15:13:37] <prospectacle> or do you mean in general
[15:13:37] <crutchy> we're old and grey and our noses are nackered
[15:14:09] <prospectacle> And now for something completely different
[15:14:29] <crutchy> waffles?
[15:14:32] <prospectacle> I bought some waterproof socks the other day.
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[15:14:40] <prospectacle> Even more than that. They work.
[15:14:46] <xlefay> You plan on getting wet?
[15:14:51] <xlefay> Or, I see, you did that already
[15:14:55] <crutchy> wow! you got ripped off dude
[15:15:03] <crutchy> i got waterproof feet!
[15:15:07] <xlefay> LOL
[15:15:11] <MrBluze> lol
[15:15:18] <prospectacle> xlefay, I had been imagining the idea of a washable shoe/slipper that you could wear outside. So I thought "these are the closest I've seen, I'll try them"
[15:15:23] <MrBluze> try doing a 5 day hike in southern australia without waterproof socks
[15:15:24] <prospectacle> lol
[15:15:33] <MrBluze> do they breathe, prospectacle?
[15:15:48] <prospectacle> mrbluze, yes, according to the packet anyway
[15:15:57] <xlefay> interesting
[15:16:00] <prospectacle> It looks like normal fabric on the outside.
[15:16:16] <crutchy> they recommend you learn resuscitation anyway though
[15:16:22] <crutchy> just in case
[15:16:23] <MrBluze> lol
[15:16:32] <MrBluze> kiss of life on your feet?
[15:16:36] <prospectacle> I wore them in the mud and water and when i got back to the house they were leaving wet marks on the porch. I took them off and my feet left no mark!
[15:16:38] <Popeidol> MrBluze: a lot of explorer socks are very quick drying, though not waterproof
[15:16:38] <prospectacle> magic
[15:16:51] <MrBluze> i usually have explorer socks
[15:16:53] <Popeidol> MrBluze: while hiking down south I found them pretty damn useful
[15:17:08] <MrBluze> yeah the trick is snow seal your boots and make sure they go above the ankles
[15:17:23] <MrBluze> then it's ok unless u accidentally step in 3 feet of mud
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[15:17:26] <MrBluze> which happens
[15:17:33] <Popeidol> I just used sock guards
[15:17:35] <crutchy> you need shoes like on snatch when the dogs are chasing the rabbit
[15:17:38] <Popeidol> the ones that prevent you getting grass seeds
[15:17:55] <crutchy> i mean dags
[15:18:14] <MrBluze> gators
[15:18:20] <MrBluze> i got rossi eagles
[15:18:26] <MrBluze> they rule.. but u cant get em anymore
[15:18:54] <prospectacle> Or you can wear boots that go all the way up.
[15:19:06] <prospectacle> You spend a fortune in laces, but it's worth it
[15:19:16] <MrBluze> yeah high boots save ankles
[15:19:21] <MrBluze> but u can still get tib/fib fractures
[15:19:37] <MrBluze> and more likely to get stress fractures there
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[15:19:48] <crutchy> or you can still get hit by a flying fridge
[15:20:02] <MrBluze> lol or drop-bears
[15:20:09] <xlefay> hmm or maybe not go into strange, dark places?
[15:20:14] <prospectacle> Best thing really is just to have spare socks and strong bones
[15:20:36] <prospectacle> the latter can be acquired by doing smaller hikes before your big one
[15:20:43] <prospectacle> the former can be achieved by packing spare socks
[15:20:45] <crutchy> i generally put up signs around my house that say "NO FLYING FRIDGES ALLOWED"
[15:20:49] <Popeidol> adamantium bones and explorer socks: you can't do better
[15:20:57] <prospectacle> popeidol, agreed
[15:21:48] <prospectacle> also, hoverboard
[15:22:31] <crutchy> also, natalie portman
[15:22:52] <xlefay> damn
[15:23:04] <xlefay> the last suggestion is prolly the best
[15:23:04] <crutchy> ...on a hoverboard
[15:23:09] <crutchy> ...naked
[15:23:27] <xlefay> things just keep getting better and better aren't they?
[15:23:37] <MrBluze> gnite
[15:23:42] <prospectacle> good night mr bluze
[15:23:49] <crutchy> night mrbluze
[15:24:09] <Popeidol> http://www.wellingtonsurplus.com.au
[15:24:09] MrBluze is now known as MrBluze|afk
[15:24:17] <Popeidol> I didn't realise wellington surplus had an online store
[15:24:19] <Popeidol> but I'm liking it
[15:24:20] <crutchy> i'm prolly not far off... i'm already far past engagement of retard mode
[15:26:02] <xlefay> http://www.wellingtonsurplus.com.au w00t
[15:26:22] <Popeidol> I always love walking into that shop
[15:27:01] <Popeidol> though I think the last thing I bought there was a russian military hat
[15:29:14] <prospectacle> Yeah surplus stores are cool
[15:29:24] <prospectacle> that reminds me i need some shoes
[15:29:38] <prospectacle> Are dr martens as good as people say?
[15:30:37] <Popeidol> prospectacle: https://www.youtube.com
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[15:32:26] <prospectacle> well that settles it
[15:32:54] <Popeidol> it's quite a good sales pitch, really
[15:33:25] <prospectacle> alexei sayle has spoken
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[16:03:09] <Blackmoore> ?!?
[16:04:13] <xlefay> Bytram, enjoys pretending to be CmdrTaco
[16:05:49] <Blackmoore> indeed
[16:06:52] <Woods> Bytram just has identity issues.
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[16:10:44] <deadbeef> [SoylentNews] - Slashdot: Down for Hours? - http://sylnt.us - back-up-again
[16:10:53] <xlefay> who cares
[16:10:54] <xlefay> x'D
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[16:29:05] <Brylarke> Maybe it was sabotage
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[16:42:31] <Blackmoore> f'd by beta?
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[16:49:05] <prospectacle> later all
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[16:50:25] <Blackmoore> cya
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[17:11:14] <weeds> good morning
[17:15:03] <Blackmoore> mornin
[17:21:04] <weeds> SO, about those giant holes (golf)...
[17:21:16] <Woods> lawl
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[17:25:00] <Blackmoore> i really cant see any golfing locations adopting that.
[17:25:21] <Blackmoore> you can't have the rabble in our country club!
[17:25:34] <weeds> :)
[17:25:54] <Blackmoore> why the next thing you know the'll let WOMEN golf!
[17:26:21] <Blackmoore> and then we wont be able to stay at the 19th hole with our 4 martini lunch!
[17:26:31] <weeds> From my perspective, it's the challenge that makes it fun. WHen you chip it up onto the green and it rolls into that teeny tiny hole, that's when it feels great.
[17:26:55] <weeds> If it's a crater, that's not so much of a challenge
[17:26:58] <Blackmoore> i can see that. I can't golf at all.
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[17:27:26] <Blackmoore> i went ONCE. i did ok until i had to putt
[17:27:44] <Blackmoore> it ruined a nice walk on a fine day.
[17:27:49] <weeds> driving range....
[17:27:50] <Woods> I agree. But I think the soccer variation would be way more interesting (for me)
[17:28:08] <weeds> soccer variation?
[17:28:28] <Blackmoore> I dont mind the driving range. nice way to vent fustrations on a tiny ball.
[17:28:43] <Woods> At the end of TFS it mentions that there is a golf variation that is played with larger holes, and a soccer ball.
[17:29:00] <Blackmoore> yeah, to go along with the 15" hole, they played it like soccer
[17:29:18] <Blackmoore> i like the idea of full contact golf
[17:29:27] <weeds> RIght, kicking the ball
[17:29:36] <Woods> mmhmm
[17:29:38] <weeds> (then it's not golf)
[17:29:41] <Blackmoore> nope
[17:29:55] <Blackmoore> it should get it's own name
[17:30:02] <Woods> Soccolf...
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[17:30:11] <Woods> No, that sounds like a horrible disease.
[17:30:20] <Blackmoore> santorum?
[17:30:23] <weeds> I play hockey. Golf with giant holes or soccer balls is akin to broomball. (broomball aint hockey)
[17:31:11] <Blackmoore> hell. even floor hockey isnt really hockey
[17:31:53] janrinok is now known as janrinok|afk
[17:32:30] <weeds> A man after my own heart. None of them should be called hockey except the one played on ice with skates and a hard puck.
[17:33:19] <weeds> Blackmoore: Do you skate?
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[17:51:55] <Blackmoore> eh, kinda. it has been a long time.. 10 years since i put them on.
[17:52:01] <deadbeef> [SoylentNews] - USA is No Longer Number 1 in Several Areas - http://sylnt.us - blame-Canada
[17:52:09] <Blackmoore> i was never very good
[17:52:49] <Blackmoore> I love Hockey.
[17:53:33] <Blackmoore> although i really dont get why the NHL cant get serious about the head hits.
[17:54:05] * Subsentient blames canada
[17:56:31] <aqu4> <o^[=====]------
[17:56:45] <weeds> lizard?
[17:56:49] <aqu4> ` / |
[17:56:56] <aqu4> <o^[=====]------
[17:56:57] <aqu4> ` / |
[17:57:45] <Subsentient> weeds: No. it's a rat.
[17:58:04] <Subsentient> <o^[=====]------
[17:58:05] <Subsentient> ` / |
[17:59:47] <aqu4> <o^[=====]------ <o^[=====]------
[17:59:52] <aqu4> ` / | ` / |
[18:12:03] <TK_> (\_/)
[18:12:09] <TK_> (='.'=)
[18:12:13] <TK_> (")_(")
[18:12:27] <TK_> Go get 'em, bootsy
[18:18:25] <Blackmoore> damn rats.
[18:19:00] <Blackmoore> where's the damn exterminator bot?
[18:34:22] Blackmoore is now known as blackmoore|afk
[18:34:54] <TK_> Out to lunch it seems
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[19:21:08] <deadbeef> [SoylentNews] - NYPD Twitter Campaign Backfires - http://sylnt.us - social-media-at-its-finest
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[20:51:17] <deadbeef> [SoylentNews] - First Face Recognition Algorithm that Beat Humans - http://sylnt.us - they-want-know-everything-about-everybody
[21:10:18] <Blackmoore> moo
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[22:20:24] <deadbeef> [SoylentNews] - Experts Warn Against Riding in Airline Wheel Wells - http://sylnt.us - it-only-works-in-movies
[22:23:10] <SirFinkus> lol great headline
[22:25:10] * Teckla chuckles
[22:26:39] <Woods> :)
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[23:04:37] <Blackmoore> but it always works in the movies!
[23:07:30] <xlefay> ^^^^^^^
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[23:20:53] <Blackmoore> and the fastest wat out of the building is through the plateflass window!
[23:23:30] <Woods> For some reason, that sounds really gross.
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[23:36:38] <Blackmoore> i think i need to get a keyboard with larger keys :(
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[23:37:37] <xlefay> or get smaller fingers :p
[23:41:25] <deadbeef> [SoylentNews] - SCOTUS Uphold Michigan's Affirmative Action Ban - http://sylnt.us
[23:42:32] <xlefay> Someone told me the other day what 'scotus' meant.. already forgot it *googles*
[23:42:58] <xlefay> ugh x'D
[23:43:58] <Woods> Xlefay: It is in TFS
[23:44:08] <xlefay> yeah I just opened it
[23:44:12] <SirFinkus> hehe "scotus"
[23:44:13] <xlefay> janrinok++
[23:44:13] <deadbeef> karma - janrinok: 16
[23:45:48] <Blackmoore> bacon++
[23:45:48] <deadbeef> karma - bacon: 223
[23:45:49] <SirFinkus> 503 Service Unavailable
[23:45:51] <SirFinkus> uh oh
[23:45:57] <SirFinkus> back
[23:46:09] <SirFinkus> nevermind, broken again
[23:46:23] <xlefay> Yeah, we're fixing it, sorry
[23:46:36] <SirFinkus> as long as someone knows :)
[23:46:41] <Blackmoore> looks like the failover is working :)
[23:47:12] <xlefay> Blackmoore, actually, this is because of the failover rofl
[23:47:35] <SirFinkus> it fell over?
[23:47:58] <xlefay> No, MySQL's complaining about shit, so we're fixin'
[23:48:08] <xlefay> well.. I guess it did haha
[23:48:52] <Woods> It was me. New guy, jacking up the system and all that.
[23:49:02] <ar> > news about /. being down
[23:49:06] <xlefay> LOL
[23:49:12] <ar> > SN goes 503
[23:49:19] <xlefay> Our own security pretty much caught us.. apparmor o.O
[23:50:05] <xlefay> Sometimes, tightness can be bad I guess
[23:50:40] <chromas> A little spit should help with the tightness
[23:50:49] <xlefay> eh.. in a security technical sense.. damn that could be misinterpreted badly.
[23:50:57] <xlefay> .. and it was lol ;-)
[23:51:15] <SirFinkus> oh boy
[23:51:35] <xlefay> Seems it's fixed now
[23:52:04] <xlefay> We'll let you know the next time we'll introduce breakage, stay tuned?
[23:54:25] <SirFinkus> sure thing
[23:55:44] <xlefay> so how are you guys?
[23:56:23] <SirFinkus> doing ok, you?
[23:56:41] <xlefay> Extremely tired, but ok :)
[23:57:46] <SirFinkus> blah, nothing worse
[23:58:52] <SirFinkus> http://www.nytimes.com
[23:59:00] <SirFinkus> sounds like net neutrality is dead